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Clip control on the Apple GPU

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Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU

#11

Post by smoldesu »

kirbyfan64sos wrote: post #9
smoldesu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty insane that OpenGL 2.1 is even functional on a GPU this strange, but remember; this is still an unfinished, hacky implementation (the author's own concession). Plus, you're going to be stuck on x11 until any serious GPU drivers get written, which in many people's opinion is just as bad as no hardware acceleration at all. No MacOS-like trackpad gestures either, you'll be waiting for Wayland support to get…

I'm a bit confused as to why X11/wayland would be a huge issue here? The Mesa docs do say X11-only, but they're referring to running the driver on macOS (hence the XQuartz reference), where Wayland basically doesn't exist.

Ah, looks like I definitely missed that.

In any case, I don't think Asahi/M1 has proper KWin or Mutter support yet. It's still going to take a while before you get a truly smooth desktop Linux experience on those devices, but some hardware acceleration is definitely better than none!

Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU

#12

Post by pornel »

Apple could help by documenting this stuff. I remember the good old days when every Mac OS X came with an extra CD with Xcode, and Apple was regularly publishing Technical Notes detailing implementation details. Today the same level of detail is treated as top secret, and it seems that Apple doesn't want developers to even think beyond the surface of the tiny App Store sandbox.

Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU

#14

Post by Miraste »

smoldesu wrote: post #6
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #2

Optimistic that OpenGL 2.1 will be available by the end of the year on Asahi - well that is news. It's only 2.1, but that's enough (as stated) for a web browser, desktop acceleration, and old games. Also RIP all the countless pessimistic "engineers" here and elsewhere saying we'd be waiting for years more for any graphics acceleration. Edit: It is true though that AAA Gaming will wait: "Please temper your expectation…

It's pretty insane that OpenGL 2.1 is even functional on a GPU this strange, but remember; this is still an unfinished, hacky implementation (the author's own concession). Plus, you're going to be stuck on x11 until any serious GPU drivers get written, which in many people's opinion is just as bad as no hardware acceleration at all. No MacOS-like trackpad gestures either, you'll be waiting for Wayland support to get…

Why would you need Wayland for trackpad gestures?

Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU

#16

Post by chongli »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #8
chongli wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has a very complicated Display Controller design Can anyone in the know give more information here? Why would Apple want to do this? What could they be doing that's so complicated in the display controller?

https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1549672494210113536 and https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1415360411260493826?lang... and https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1526104383519350785 As to why? Well, if it ain't broke don't fix it from iPhone, but it is still a bit of a mystery. In a nutshell from those threads: 1. Apple's DCP silicon layout is actually massive, explaining the 1 external display limit 2. Apple imple…

Yeah it makes perfect sense that they don't want to expose any of that complexity to 3rd parties and risk constant breakage with new models. I'm just really curious about what sort of complex logic they have going on in that silicon.

Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU

#17

Post by dagmx »

pornel wrote: post #12

Apple could help by documenting this stuff. I remember the good old days when every Mac OS X came with an extra CD with Xcode, and Apple was regularly publishing Technical Notes detailing implementation details. Today the same level of detail is treated as top secret, and it seems that Apple doesn't want developers to even think beyond the surface of the tiny App Store sandbox.

Even back in the day, those technical notes would not cover private APIs like this, because they’re subject to change or are for internal use only.

These are the same in any closed source OS

Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU

#18

Post by madeofpalk »

pornel wrote: post #12

Apple could help by documenting this stuff. I remember the good old days when every Mac OS X came with an extra CD with Xcode, and Apple was regularly publishing Technical Notes detailing implementation details. Today the same level of detail is treated as top secret, and it seems that Apple doesn't want developers to even think beyond the surface of the tiny App Store sandbox.

Apple Platform Security: May 2022. 242 pages.

https://help.apple.com/pdf/security/en_GB/apple-platform-sec...

Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU

#19

Post by dagmx »

viktorcode wrote: post #15

Can someone explain to me why support OpenGL at all? Vulkan is easier to implement. Is there a need for OpenGL on Linux?

Because Vulkan, despite the mystical reputation it has in gaming circles, actually has fairly low adoption vs OpenGL .

Very few applications in the grand scheme of things use Vulkan, and a minority of games do.

Therefore the ROI on supporting OpenGL is very high.

Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU

#20

Post by gjsman-1000 »

viktorcode wrote: post #15

Can someone explain to me why support OpenGL at all? Vulkan is easier to implement. Is there a need for OpenGL on Linux?

On a reverse-engineered GPU like this, because of Vulkan's low-level design, implementing (early) OpenGL might actually be significantly easier.

Also, Vulkan isn't popular with game developers because availability sucks. Vulkan doesn't run on macOS. Or iOS. Or 40% of Android phones. Or Xbox. Or PlayStation. Or Nintendo Switch[1].

Unless you are targeting Windows (which has DirectX and OpenGL already), or those 60% of Android phones only, or Linux, why would you use Vulkan? On Windows, DirectX is a generally-superior alternative, and you get Xbox support basically free, and if you also support an older DirectX, much broader PC compatibility. On Android, just use OpenGL, and don't worry about separate implementations for the bifurcated Vulkan/OpenGL support. On Linux, just use Proton with an older DirectX. Whiz bang, no need for Vulkan whatsoever. Yes, some systems might perform better if you had a Vulkan over OpenGL, but is the cost worth it when you don't need it?

[1] Technically, Vulkan does exist for Nintendo Switch, but it is so slow almost no production game uses it, and it is widely considered not an option. Nintendo Switch is slow enough without Vulkan making it slower. Much easier just to use the proprietary NVIDIA library.

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