Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg • Hacker News Board

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#381

Post by mandmandam » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:09 AM UTC

phatfish wrote: post #371

kranke155 wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of Corbyn as an “anti semite” was an incredible act of mass psychological warfare inflicted on the British public. An incredible feat, to all those involved, respect for their skill. I’d never seen anything quite like it before I moved to the Uk.

Unfortunately the anti-semite line was easy to make stick because of his well known vocal opposition to the Israeli oppression of Palestinians. So not an incredible feat, but it was a case of corporate interests and the Tory party pushing the "emergency button" as an real Social Democrat was getting too popular and very close to becoming PM. Also, as seems to be the fashion for left wing politicians, he has a soft sp…

> the anti-semite line was easy to make stick

No it wasn't. Tremendous coordination and force went into pushing that line.

> because of his well known vocal opposition to the Israeli oppression of Palestinians

A view shared by right thinking people everywhere. Oppression is bad yo.

> it was a case of corporate interests and the Tory party pushing the "emergency button" as an real Social Democrat was getting too popular and very close to becoming PM.

Yes. But it wasn't easy, and it wasn't right, and the fact that the BBC and the Guardian and every other major paper and network failed to call the smear campaign out - and even fed it - is indicative of horrifying and deep problems.

> as seems to be the fashion for left wing politicians, he has a soft spot for Russia

Not really, he just isn't into escalating into war with a nuclear power; and recognizes that the Russian people are not the Russian leadership. This "nuance" has been shot and buried in a shallow grave.

> I think some people still think there is a Communist utopia over there, it's very strange.

Literally no one is saying that, except for corporate right wing media putting words in people's mouths. It's really weird that you'd believe them, given - again - that no one is saying that, or anything even remotely like it.

> I don't believe that there would have been no response from the UK to the Russian invasion if he had ended up PM, but it would have been slower and less impactful.

Again, this is a line pushed by right wing corporate media against left leaders all the time. And I thoroughly disagree with it.

Like - how is BoJo faring right now? Do you feel he's respected as a leader? Come off it.

And Britain is on the brink of blackouts without Russian oil, thanks to the dependence on oil fostered by Tories and their mates. A left, pro environment government would not have been so dependent in the first place.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#382

Post by jen20 » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:41 AM UTC

mandmandam wrote: post #381

phatfish wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the anti-semite line was easy to make stick because of his well known vocal opposition to the Israeli oppression of Palestinians. So not an incredible feat, but it was a case of corporate interests and the Tory party pushing the "emergency button" as an real Social Democrat was getting too popular and very close to becoming PM. Also, as seems to be the fashion for left wing politicians, he has a soft sp…

> the anti-semite line was easy to make stick No it wasn't. Tremendous coordination and force went into pushing that line. > because of his well known vocal opposition to the Israeli oppression of Palestinians A view shared by right thinking people everywhere. Oppression is bad yo. > it was a case of corporate interests and the Tory party pushing the "emergency button" as an real Social Democrat was getting too popul…

> Like - how is BoJo faring right now?

Given the two abominations of humanity up for PM now, in 3-4 months he’s going to look positively Churchillian.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#383

Post by aprdm » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:47 AM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #75

ogogmad wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person I'm speaking to claims that the NHS hires too many bureaucrats who are impossible to fire, and who he believes provide the doctors with too much paperwork. He suggests that instead of paying those bureaucrats, the money should go to doctors, nurses and equipment. He claims that the NHS gets about the same amount of money - GDP-wise - as other European countries, while underperforming them. They already hir…

That sounds like exactly the kind of thing you'd say, if you wanted to destroy a beloved public institution though. Most people are worried about the UK moving to a US model, not to be more like Norway, Netherlands and Australia and administrative efficiency is something the NHS does well: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2... > Conclusion: Four features distinguish top performing countries…

Austrália isn’t really doing well too , is it ?

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#384

Post by andrewjl » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:47 AM UTC

googlryas wrote: post #322

forgotusername6 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the argument I hate the most from Americans w.r.t. nationalised healthcare. It's unbelievable

Except it isn't an argument against nationalised healthcare. The UK has nationalised health care and that is what OP is complaining about. I think it would be more an argument by OP against "nationalised healthcare with legal private healthcare". The exact argument is "doctors/nurses are limited, and they aren't behaving how I think they should behave. Let's fix the system so they have no choice". I guess that isn't…

Who is doing the rejecting and regarding what path? What specific proposed fixes are you referring to?

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#385

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:50 AM UTC

rleigh wrote: post #221

Teever wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think this should be an option?

Why should it be an option? Because we live in a free country, and should be free to spend our money as we see fit. Even if others don't agree with it. Why should we all be compelled by the force of law to divert a huge fraction of our income to an organisation which is so ineffective and inaccessible? We are forced to spend a significant fraction of our salaries on the NHS whether or not we want to. If we feel that…

[deleted]

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#386

Post by koshergweilo » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 4:03 AM UTC

snidane wrote: post #316

koshergweilo wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless a politician actually makes the unpopular move to... massively increase fertility There is no magic political move to increase fertility. If there was Japan would have done it decades ago.

Solving the unaffordability of housing crisis is the step needed to unblock fertility. The solution exist, yet it cannot be pushed forward in a democratic system as it creates a generational conflict. Hint: LVT

Although I agree solving the housing problem will help fertility (personally I'm waiting to have kids until I get more permanent housing) it's definitely not the only thing stopping people from having kids. Rich people famously have low fertility and they don't have any trouble getting housing.

Fertility, like homelessness, is a multivariable function that requires a multitude of policies and approaches. It's not a simple dial that one can move back and fourth.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#387

Post by aprdm » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 4:17 AM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #338

Some insights from the Netherlands, the country right to the east of the UK: the healthcare system is still under extreme pressure and everyone important is pretending the pandemic is over. Nurses and other healthcare professionals have been quitting and are not planning to come back because there is no chance of increased pay (which only drives up the pressure to those still working in healthcare). Hospitals are wor…

Canadá is also doing terribly bad . Seems to be an issue in many countries currently .

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#388

Post by nradov » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 5:18 AM UTC

ricardobayes wrote: post #229

rleigh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's not what anyone wants The NHS has been turned into what is effectively a state religion in some quarters. It's untouchable. It can't be criticised. It's immune to meaningful improvement and reform at this point. Yet everyone I know who works for the NHS has a litany of stories about the inefficiency and waste. And it consumes an increasing proportion of the GDP. Eventually, something will have to give. Its b…

I just don't know why that is, every piece of that puzzle I have met, was really efficient and generally doing a good job. Spain is now trying to fix this and pensions by doubling self-employed tax. UK should probably follow suit, UK self-employed tax is ridiculously low. 20% on profits until 50k pounds won't cover a functioning healthcare system (or pensions for that matter).

Governments shouldn't be providing anyone with pensions in the first place. Instead they should make defined contribution plans like IRA and 401(k) available to everyone.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#389

Post by _benedict » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 5:37 AM UTC

usrusrusrusr wrote: post #363

_benedict wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK spends less per capita (PPP) than most other equivalent country's health system [1,2]? I never quite understand the "cost effective" arguments against the NHS. These costs include all of our private health care expenditure, which are surprisingly significant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea... https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan...

The two are not mutually exclusive; you can pay less for healthcare than other countries, and still get a bad deal. Eg: It's currently almost impossible to get routine or early-stage healthcare. If I want a routine doctor's appointment, I have to phone every day at 8am when the next batch of appointments are released, and hope I get one. Last time, it took hours on hold, and attempts over several days, to get one.

Your GP surgery is privately run, so in this case the issue is likely very much an issue of the supply of available doctors, and how your GP surgery chooses to operate its appointment system.

I believe appointments are now run more efficiently due to the backlog and changes in processes due to Covid, with the reason for an appointment usually submitted digitally first, followed by an efficient telephone consultation that is well prepared based on your submitted reason for needing an appointment, and a follow-up consultation as necessary. Perhaps your GP surgery in particular is struggling, or you are perhaps not engaging with the new approach.

I have been surprised at just how well functioning the health service is right now despite the incredible pressures on it, but perhaps my local area is coping better than others.

Importantly, however, this issue was broadly not present 10 years ago when the NHS was better funded to meet its needs, and was still cheaper than other countries. So the issue is not the NHS, but funding, which is also corroborated by our relatively low level of health spending.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#390

Post by b3nji » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 6:30 AM UTC

jajahusjsna wrote: post #8

Covid is one aspect of this. Another is the massive. underfunding of the NHS over the last decade. This has become much more evident post-covid thanks to the backlogs. - Getting a GP to see you in person is now quite difficult (they want to do everything via phone). - Seeing your GP (depending on your area) can involve a 2-3 week wait and waiting in an hours long phone queue. - When you are referred to hospital for t…

Coincidentally, there have been a large increase in heart issues, and SAD (sudden adult death syndrome) happening too.

This appears to have started back at the end of 2020, in waves over the last few years. First, the elderly, then filtering down to the younger age brackets.

All in the wake of the terrible things you have mentioned.

Having worked with the NHS for years, I've seen the good and bad of it. The nurses are the rock, a lot of the doctors seem great, others quite alarmingly without common sense. The management seem to have a policy to "promote to incompetence", and the government intervention seems to encourage the wasting of the vast sums of money they are given.

It's a perfect storm, people don't want to recognise what is happening, the NHS is dead already.