Nobody wants to teach anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#131

Post by XorNot » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:28 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #30

a-dub wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is a way of expressing respect in market economies, it's called money.

Money will not overcome the "those who can't, teach" sentiment that runs quite strongly in the US. There is a very strong anti-intelligence (not merely anti-intellectual) sentiment in this country. It will help, and we should certainly pay teachers more, but it isn't the whole solution.

Yes it will. Because if you pay teachers more, in fact, pay them well, then more people will want to move into the field.

If teaching was like a FANNG tech job, with limited availability due to demand and salary, then it would be "discovered" to be prestigious and valuable and important.

And moreover, everyone would be free to come up with their own performance management BS because you'd actually have the glut of incoming talent that supports failures removing people from the industry (or screw it up so bad that despite the money no one bothers - also a FANNG phenomenan).

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#132

Post by borski » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:28 PM UTC

orzig wrote: post #47

mantas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying more will solve the appreciation problem. My wife is (ex)teacher. Parents would flat-out say that they can't respect her because of her salary. Along the lines of, if you're smart and can do stuff, why the hell are you working for such a low pay? Ergo teachers are dumb and parents (along with their kids) feel free to make fun of dumbasses who work in schools. On top of that, paying more would help with self-re…

I’m sorry to hear that, but to counter-anecdote: Four of my family members are teachers at various levels. They all have strong frustrations but money (either in terms of perception or paying the bills) has never been one.

Private schools or public?

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#133

Post by lotsofpulp » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #112

dwater wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing teacher pay to the median wage isn’t an apples to apples comparison because the average teacher has between a bachelor’s degree and a master’s, a state certification with regular training and renewal requirements, and a good amount of professional experience. I was a high school teacher and when I left my salary went up by 50% on day one, passed 100% increase within 2 years, and tripled within 5 years. The…

It's pretty close to the median worker having a bachelor's degree so that doesn't really skew the comparison Ultimately teaching salaries are fine. The median teacher makes about the median salary. But it comes with great job security, benefits, and significantly more time off than the median job. The benefits are high enough to attract enough teachers. The problem are parents and administration. And more recently ki…

> Ultimately teaching salaries are fine. The median teacher makes about the median salary. But it comes with great job security, benefits, and significantly more time off than the median job.

I know 3 public school teachers, in CA/NYC/NJ. Their 6 to 8 weeks off in the summer (if that, due to ongoing training), is nowhere near enough to offset the low pay per hour and most importantly, having to deal with garbage parents and their misbehaving kids.

They also work many extra hours at home during the school year doing grading or prepping exercises or whatever. If we have a get together, the teachers will pretty much guaranteed to be working all or some portion of the evening.

> The benefits are high enough to attract enough teachers

Only if you think 30+ kids per class is acceptable. I would want no more than 20 kids per class.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#134

Post by chadash » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

_vdpp wrote: post #98

A few random thoughts: 1. For as much as we spend on education, teachers seem to be grossly underpaid - to be getting robbed of their share of the budget. Where does that money go? 2. It seems that education degrees are seen as easier to achieve than others. 3. Teachers frequently complain about how they are unappreciated, yet children spend _12 years_ in their care. Why do people come up to them and say they hated s…

> Disruptive children are caused by parents who frankly just don’t give a shit. Throwing more money into schools won’t ever fix this problem.

I was a disruptive child and my parents were the opposite of people who didn’t give a shit. Both of them highly valued education and spent plenty of time with me. they just had to contend with a child who wasn’t well behaved at school and it was genetics more than anything they did. They spent thousands of dollars on therapists and medicines and it didn’t help that much. Luckily for me, puberty seemed to turn things around and I ended up doing well in high school and very well in college (at a good school). Now I’ve got two little trouble makers of my own and it’s pretty obvious to me where they got those genes from.

I agree that dealing with problematic kids is a pain in the ass for teachers and I do try to thank them when I see them, and I even agree that parenting is often the issue, but a lot of it is genetics and luck.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#135

Post by holyknight » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

Most teachers are incredibly incompetent at their job. I am all up in rising the wages of teachers if they can keep up with their task. Wages and seniority should be based on data on teacher performance not in years.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#136

Post by aetherson » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

vostok wrote: post #66

lr4444lr wrote: post #15

I realize this piece is more of a rant, and I won't hold it to a data accuracy standard it never pretended to have, but they pay issue is really misconstrued. Salaries in large urban districts are often well above area median, and when accounting for benefits and pension, quite impressive. In South Dakota and a number of states in the south and rural districts, yes it is another story, and it is bad. Also, teachers N…

> Salaries in large urban districts are often well above area median Is the median the correct benchmark? The median household income in NYC was $67k in 2021 [0]. Why would someone choose to be a teacher making around the median [1] when you could be a software engineer and make 3x as much? It's not just a matter of trinkets and baubles. That difference allows you to comfortably afford a nice family sized apartment […

People might want to be teachers rather than software engineers because teachers get enormous amounts of time off, have extremely high levels of job security, plus all the usual reasons that not everyone is in the very highest paying profession.

Why aren't you a hedge fund manager?

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#137

Post by millzlane » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

borski wrote: post #117

_vdpp wrote: post #98

A few random thoughts: 1. For as much as we spend on education, teachers seem to be grossly underpaid - to be getting robbed of their share of the budget. Where does that money go? 2. It seems that education degrees are seen as easier to achieve than others. 3. Teachers frequently complain about how they are unappreciated, yet children spend _12 years_ in their care. Why do people come up to them and say they hated s…

I agree with the rest of your post, but: > Disruptive children are caused by parents who frankly just don’t give a shit. This isn’t necessarily true; sometimes the parents simply don’t have the proper info or education themselves. Example: parent of a kid with ADHD who has no understanding of what ADHD is or how it presents, and thus that their kid even has it.

This goes back to the parents who aren't taking their child to doctors for health checkups for any myriad of reasons. Early and often checkups should catch these issues. In your example I wouldn't say parents don't give a shit. But as someone who had ADHD but didn't cut up in school or wasn't a class clown, I had discipline at home. Sure I would talk during class and my mind would wander. But I wasn't being so disruptive class couldn't be taught.

Almost always in the examples of why teachers don't want to teach anymore. The focus is always on pay, testing, and administration. But who wants to come to work and teach children that are so disrespectful and so disruptive that class can't be taught. My salary wouldn't be the deciding factor here.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#138

Post by vostok » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

pnf wrote: post #105

vostok wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Salaries in large urban districts are often well above area median Is the median the correct benchmark? The median household income in NYC was $67k in 2021 [0]. Why would someone choose to be a teacher making around the median [1] when you could be a software engineer and make 3x as much? It's not just a matter of trinkets and baubles. That difference allows you to comfortably afford a nice family sized apartment […

That assumes someone qualified to be a teacher is also qualified to be a software engineer. Have you met a lot of urban public school teachers?

This post doesn't assume that, but I have met urban public school teachers who could have been software engineers since you asked.

My post does assume that the career would attract more highly qualified candidates if the pay was higher.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#139

Post by gizmondo » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:31 PM UTC

Which math books were banned for being too woke? Are they good?

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#140

Post by ekianjo » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:31 PM UTC

a-dub wrote: post #16

ekianjo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

paying teachers more is not going to solve the problem that most people do not appreciate teachers whether its kids or parents. It is certainly not a job for those who cannot stand being criticized the whole time.

there is a way of expressing respect in market economies, it's called money.

> it's called money.

Money does not come from the skies, it's about what the market agrees the value actually is (when it comes to private education) or what the government decides (for public education). Public education is a problem because in many western countries it's already the largest budget and it's still a shitshow so you are going to have a hard time to convince everyone that injecting more money is going to make it better.