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Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

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231–240 of 247 posts

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#231
post #74

To me, the only thing more ‘disturbing’ than a system which routinely fails its most vulnerable people by failing to provide adequate care and support for a good quality-of-life is a system which fails its most vulnerable people in that way and then also forces them to continue to suffer indefinitely. I agree that we should not accept a system that does not provide everyone a good chance at a decent quality of life.…

The whole point of the article is that Canada's system needs safeguards. Other countries have them. This is not a black and white pro- or anti- assisted suicide article. Killing someone for having depression and deafness is not the same as for having terminal cancer and constant pain and being bedridden. This is really not a decision for the individual patients to have freedom in. I know multiple young people who hav…

> The whole point of the article is that Canada's system needs safeguards.

If this were truly the point of the article, it would have spent less time trying to make emotional pleas and implying that assisted suicide for non-terminal patients is somehow immoral and/or a direct road to eugenics. Canada’s system does have safeguards, and whether or not they are good enough is not actually answered by a couple anecdotes and some comparisons to other countries.

> Killing someone for having depression and deafness is not the same as for having terminal cancer and constant pain and being bedridden. This is really not a decision for the individual patients to have freedom in.

There are conditions that don’t bother me at all that others would suffer with immensely, and there are many people living happy lives with conditions that I would absolutely want to kill myself over. It is incredibly paternalistic to believe that you (or I) can decide whether or not someone else’s suffering is ‘enough’.

> I know multiple young people who have been suicidal and attempted it. Most survived but more could be dead if they were able to simply ask the doctor for it and it was all easy and painless.

I am genuinely sorry to hear that you have had those experiences and I can tell that they have had an impact on you. However, it is not possible for someone to just walk into a doctor’s office in Canada and get wheeled into the morgue an hour later, and as far as I am aware no one is suggesting that it should be so.

I would encourage you to shift perspectives here and start thinking about how creating a safe, legal, and painless way to end one’s life could reduce the sorts of impulsive suicides it sounds like you’ve seen. For some, just knowing that the option is available makes hard times in life feel much more bearable. For others, the guarantee of an easy and painless assisted death makes the idea of trying to kill themselves on their own a risky and unpalatable alternative.

The more that suicidal people believe that going to see a professional is a better idea than taking things into their own hands, the more people will be able to have their quality of life improved by interventions other than death. And for those who are beyond improvement with today’s resources and technology, at least they too will be able to stop needlessly suffering.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. And unlike in the usual AS hypotheticals, (but like most actual assisted suicides), he was perfectly capable of it. He didn't need assistance. If you say, "my life is not worth living", maybe that's your call to make. But I think it would be very, very, wrong of me t…

Except that for some of us, society has already decided for us that our life isn't worth living (often without even knowing the first thing about us other than that we currently this instant don't have a bunch of money to give away to others who might be able to save us from suffering or dying), by denying many of us basic medical care (in so-called "rich" nations, even), yet the general consensus seems to be that wh…

That's a separate issue as I see it. It isn't helped by doctors with expenses targets to meet "giving you information" on how they can help you end your life.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. And unlike in the usual AS hypotheticals, (but like most actual assisted suicides), he was perfectly capable of it. He didn't need assistance. If you say, "my life is not worth living", maybe that's your call to make. But I think it would be very, very, wrong of me t…

> If you say, "my life is not worth living", maybe that's your call to make. But I think it would be very, very, wrong of me to answer, "Yes, your life is not worth living". Especially if I was your doctor. That's is _not_ what is being asked of the doctors. They are being asked to determine whether the patient truly believes their life isn't worth living. They are trying to determine if the patient is clear of mind…

You are calling me heartless for suggesting that suicidal people often crave approval for their decision. I can't see how that's heartless unless we ARE expected to support their decision, which you say we aren't.

My personal feelings about suicide become relevant when others start involving me in their suicide. I can't just "get out of the way" when I am put in that position. (The state has already gotten out of the way, as long as suicide is legal, which ofc. it should be)

The elephant in the room is that most assisted suicides, including the one in this article, happen with people who would be capable of doing it on their own.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#234
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In short; if we can't take care of them we ought to be able to at least off them?

In short; if they decide we can't take care of them and they wish to off themselves, we ought to honor that decision.

Yes and in response we should abandon more people so they voluntarily choose to off themselves. It is consent all the way down.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds about like what I would expect. Old age with an incurable degenerative disease is living in hell, so it's no surprise people take the option if it's available. But safeguards must be put in place to prevent people with a history of depression or mental diseases to be approved, it's simply an impossible decision for the state to make even if it would legitimately benefit some of them.

"we don't want to let people end their life humanely because I think I know better than them about their life. Instead they can end their life inhumanely anyways." - I rewrote what you were saying to make its intent clearer.

It is easy to put people in situations that make them contemplate suicide, deprive them of enough sleep they will become depressed and eventually get in horrible mental states that they want to end and that is the problem, people don't want to die, they want to avoid bad mental states, they want to be healthy. By just euthanizing everyone willy nilly you are depriving them of their option to be healthy and eventually we will continue justifying toxic environments by saying that you can always "leave" if you don't like it.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, significant percentage of people if they were in your situation would likely relate to your wishes to be in control, it’s completely reasonable. Also, reasonable that prior to you being in the situation that it’s likely that the topic was not pressing for you. Most people don’t want to think about intentionally dying, it’s unpleasant, frequently results in emotionally sensitive exchanges, etc — so they sim…

I'm not considered terminally ill yet by most "official" definitions (you have to have months to live). I'm lucky to have a cancer that so far response to treatment to slow it down substantially. This is relevant to the discussion because it means I'm more or less in the same position as the non-terminally ill people you are talking about. In my locale there are euthanasia laws, but they require that I suffer unbeara…

Thanks for clarifying, unlikely I am able to say anything that would be of use, but it’s obvious you’re actively trying to find solution that works for you. Again, thank you!

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen people clinging to their lives no matter how insufferable those lives seemed to me

This is going to sound like criticism but I'm legitimately interested in understanding how you think and how you arrived at your opinions. > I have seen people clinging to their lives no matter how insufferable those lives seemed to me Sure there is no end of stories about people who want to live despite major setbacks. But what does that have to do with a person who doesn't? Is the person who doesn't wrong? Do you t…

I am not arguing for forcing anyone to keep going against their will. I am arguing against the system that fails to provide care and treatment that people deserve while simultaneously nagging them towards euthanasia. Let’s consider the case when delaying or refusing some sort of surgery results in patient developing chronic pain. A few years later the patient is addicted to painkillers and suicidal. Now we perform euthanasia and forget about the original issue of failing healthcare system?

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#238
post #227
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, isn’t it their choice? If they are adults, and have lived at least a few decades.. I’ve never figured out why we as a society want to impose our morality on others.

I find this statement a bit too generic. Should society allow everything happening between consenting adults?

Shouldn't it?

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#239

> The law was later amended to allow people who are not terminally ill to choose death, significantly broadening the number of eligible people. Critics say that change removed a key safeguard aimed at protecting people with potentially years or decades of life left. Here's the thing. If I want to die at 80 because I don't want to live past that point, that is my choice. Even if I have no "illness". If I don't want to…

How do you tell the difference between someone suffering from depression that wants to die but could cure their depression and someone that just wants to die? Depression is an illness and it makes people do and say all kinds of things they wouldn't normally. What if you are 80 and just have low testosterone and want to die but then you start trt and things really get a lot better? Which "you" wanted to die and which…

At some point, you just accept that people get to make important choices about themselves, and will sometimes make ones that don't necessarily make sense.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#240
post #58
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conscription...done.

Well conscription almost doesn't exist any more in western countries. And I don't think it's a good example of something that doesn't affect anyone else, the idea is to train people in case of a war. Having people able to defend the country seems quite useful for everyone in unstable times.

There was a lot of talk about conscription being gone in Europe, up until 2014.

Then that whole Crimea thing happened.

Since then, no European country had dropped conscription, and several have re-instituted it.

The West is not uniform. Some parts of it are far enough from serious threats that they don't need conscription. But this is only possible because there are other countries to serve as a buffer, and they generally do have conscription.

(Well, or you're on a different continent entirely, and that is your primary defense.)

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