Earlier quoted context omitted.
Infanticide was a completely normal part of life in almost all historical societies though usually by drowning or smothering because they’re quieter. Exceptions are the Egyptians, Jews, Christians and Moslems. The PRC felt the need to legislate against it specifically when they conquered the last of the RoC holdouts in China in 1949 so I don’t think we need to imagine infanticide.
I am having trouble figuring out why infanticide (killing a baby that has already been born) entered a conversation about ensuring a pregnant mom and doctor are able to make healthcare decisions unencumbered from legal liabilities.
Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws
171–180 of 247 posts
Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
What do you call assisted suicide that is not assented to by the subject?
An impossibility. If there is no consent there is no "suicide", assisted or otherwise.
Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws
#173But other “experts” created the system in the first place: > Canada’s road to allowing euthanasia began in 2015, when its highest court declared that outlawing assisted suicide deprived people of their dignity and autonomy. It gave national leaders a year to draft legislation. Who cares what experts think about what’s fundamentally the regulation of morality?
Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah. Major depressive disorder is absolutely suffering. You should not force people to live with it, especially if they have sought professional help without success.
What if they've sought "professional help" and been turned away / denied due to lack of cash on hand? What if they also have physical medical issues that could get solved except for that whole pesky "cash on hand" thing? What if they've suffered for many years and now just want to give up and end the suffering?
Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws
#175Euthanasia is a godsend for situations like that and if you are against it for some reason understand that there is not such thing as an impulsive act to euthanize, that the medical profession is well capable of weighing whether you are just off your rocker for a day or two or if there is a legitimate cause. Way too many people argue about this stuff without having thought through the consequences and the possibility that one day they themselves may well be begging for that kind of relief.
Obviously, coercing people to choose the option to die and pressuring them with the cost of their treatment should be off the table entirely and should be - as far as I'm concerned - prosecutable.
Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
"we don't want to let people end their life humanely because I think I know better than them about their life. Instead they can end their life inhumanely anyways." - I rewrote what you were saying to make its intent clearer.
> Instead they can end their life inhumanely anyways That's an option that always exists. I simply have a (much) higher threshold than you in regards to a state killing its own citizens.
This sort of framing is not helping the discussion at all.
Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws
#177I am very torn by these developments. A dozen plus years ago someone close to me had ALS, a horribly vile disease that to this day is a death sentence upon diagnosis. Think of a judge saying to you "you will serve two years of daily punishment each day worse than the previous after which you will die". Medical care is capable of sustaining life well beyond the capabilities of the body by itself. On the other hand, th…
Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
> On the other hand, this should not be available to someone who has "hearing loss" Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? > and is possibly not in a position to make good decisions. Who are you to tell?
> Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. And unlike in the usual AS hypotheticals, (but like most actual assisted suicides), he was perfectly capable of it. He didn't need assistance. If you say, "my life is not worth living", maybe that's your call to make. But I think it would be very, very, wrong of me t…
That's is _not_ what is being asked of the doctors. They are being asked to determine whether the patient truly believes their life isn't worth living. They are trying to determine if the patient is clear of mind in his or her decision-making. It would be unprofessional and _wrong_ of a doctor to somehow make this decision about them.
Frankly I think you have it entirely backwards. The patients are trying to remove the state's prerogative to block their suicide. They aren't asking you to validate their decision; they are trying to remove you from the equation entirely. They want to be allowed to make decisions about their bodies and their lives _themselves_.
I honestly find your position exceedingly selfish and callous. Your personal feelings of suicide simply do not matter when it comes to others' choices about how they'd like their lives you end.
Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws
#179> prompting doctors and health workers to suggest the procedure to those who might not otherwise consider it. Please tell me there isn't a financial incentive behind this. The only thing worse than doctors suggesting opioids to those who might not otherwise consider it is doctors suggesting death to those who might not otherwise consider it.
The problem is that the government and health care institutions have a conflict of interest in euthanasia.
A citizen that is costly to you? Wouldn't it be convenient if they disappeared? Wouldn't it be even better if they believed this was in their own best interests?
I think a legitimate argument can be made that in many of these cases, Canada is simply killing its citizens rather than try to provide services, and essentially blaming it on the citizens or fate.
I'm a huge supporter of assisted suicide. I believe it's a fundamental form of autonomy. But I also believe that people can be in positions where they are incapable of offering informed consent, and also strongly believe those in a position to assist cannot be in a place to assist in deciding. There needs to be a firewall in between. Probably a step further, in that there needs to be someone openly arguing against euthanasia as a matter of course, to ensure there is an advocate for that position.
Think of it this way. Let's say a person is mentally incapable of consenting — they have a severe cognitive disability, or are a child. They are falsely accused by the state of a capital offense, because it unethically benefits the state (eg, to protect corrupt police). If they convince the accused of their guilt, does it make ethically acceptable? What if the accused is capable of consent, but is lied to and brainwashed about their guilt, and manipulated into believing they are guilty?
In those cases, doesn't it still make sense to have a legal advocate for their innocence?
How is that fundamentally different?
Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is involuntary dying really worse than involuntary living? Personally I’d much rather risk the former than the latter.
I mean if you’re still alive you can always die another time - or not. But when you die, that’s that. No more options. Medical ethics usually desires preserving options down the road as much as possible.
Well, not very easily if I'm legally prohibited from doing so! IMO medical ethics is wrongly biased towards preserving life at all costs.