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Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

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Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#91

Post by kragen »

pomian wrote: post #12
samwillis wrote: post #6

Slightly off topic, I’m keen to dispose of our Teflon frying pan. Does anyone have a good recommendation for an alternative, ideally one that doesn’t take too much “maintenance”? We also have a Teflon milk pan but that is never used at a high tempriture so I’m less concerned about that.

Nothing beats cast iron. They aren't hard to take care of.(In spite of the rhetoric.) Actually easier, once you get a good surface on them. Pots, frying pans, woks, etc. They work very well. The most important thing is to give them time to heat up. Once they are, they hold the heat very well, so can cook at any temperature.

Do you have recommendations for seasoning them without a thermostat or a suitable thermometer? I successfully burned my new cast-iron skillet clean, but even after four thin coats of poppyseed and flaxseed oil, each heated up for an hour or so to a temperature that chars garlic skin after a few minutes, eggs still stick if I try to cook them on it without oil.

(I'm a fan of teflon but I like cast iron even more.)

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#92

Post by ars »

autoexec wrote: post #84
ars wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teflon is not harmful. Period. It doesn't cause ANYTHING in the body. It's about the most inert material that you can possibly ingest.

Please cite the long term studies on ingested PTFE coatings that assert they are safe. I'll wait...

Here you go: https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/fear-tefl...

PTFE goes out unchanged from how it was when it went in. It's completely inert. It's even used in implants, so has plenty of long term studies:

https://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant

https://www.facialplasticsurgerycharlotte.com/content/upload...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26110468/

How many studies are you looking for?

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#93

Post by adriand »

ars wrote: post #68
arcticbull wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's fair your link suggests it's found its way into schedule 2 of the chemical weapons convention. > Perfluoroisobutene is quite toxic with an LCt = 880 mg⋅min⋅m−3 (mice).[1] It is a Schedule 2 substance of the Chemical Weapons Convention. I don't know about you but I try and keep my ricin away from my breakfast foods. It is however reassuring that it'll be degraded in the environment.

> I don't know about you but I try and keep my ricin away from my breakfast foods. To cause Teflon to degrade you have to heat the pan to over 500F / 260C. No one cooks at those temperatures, even ovens don't go so high. You basically have to forget the pan on a high flame for a long time. And the toxic chemicals you get from overheating oil are far worse, somehow everyone forgets about those.

Every oven I’ve ever had goes to 500 degrees. I have no idea why you are making this claim. Anecdotally I know I can get pans hotter than this on my gas stovetop, just judging on searing and smoke production, and a quick google for how hot pans can get on a stovetop gives results > 600 degrees.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#94

Post by freemint »

ars wrote: post #54
Dan_- wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. There is “toxic” and there is “causes cancer, even outside California, reduces fertility, and negatively affects fetal development.” Just because something doesn’t kill you immediately does not mean it isn’t harmful.

Teflon is not harmful. Period. It doesn't cause ANYTHING in the body. It's about the most inert material that you can possibly ingest.

Even inert materials can do stuff, such as prevent other reactions or act catalytically or have physical impacts (collision which defold molecules, make certain things heavier by being enclosed or enclosing ... ).

Furthermore PTFE is know to interact with Gallic Acid [1] somewhat. The body contains gallic acid

[1] https://www.calpaclab.com/teflon-ptfe-compatibility/

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#95

Post by ReptileMan »

baby wrote: post #61
tetetetetete wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought a cast iron thinking it would be a pain. its really not. they have came a long way. you can treat it like any other pan (besides being heavy) - you can use soap to clean it. - Dont get me wrong. treating it correctly will make it last a life time. i just store mine in the oven when ive finished washing it.

I’m not sure about general treatment, but one thing that you can’t do is let water sit in there, as it’ll rust.

Crystallized citric acid is cheap. Couple of tablespoons in a suitable container and give the offending piece a bath. Wash away the rust. Bake in the oven with one layer of oil to season.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#96

Post by adriand »

kragen wrote: post #91
pomian wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing beats cast iron. They aren't hard to take care of.(In spite of the rhetoric.) Actually easier, once you get a good surface on them. Pots, frying pans, woks, etc. They work very well. The most important thing is to give them time to heat up. Once they are, they hold the heat very well, so can cook at any temperature.

Do you have recommendations for seasoning them without a thermostat or a suitable thermometer? I successfully burned my new cast-iron skillet clean, but even after four thin coats of poppyseed and flaxseed oil, each heated up for an hour or so to a temperature that chars garlic skin after a few minutes, eggs still stick if I try to cook them on it without oil. (I'm a fan of teflon but I like cast iron even more.)

I’m not sure you’ll ever get to cooking with no oil on cast iron. I have very well seasoned pans and I cook with oil, even then eggs will stick a little occasionally. My advice is to cook regularly and whenever you see the surface dry out a bit, apply oil (I find almost any oil or grease works) with some paper towel. I never clean it with soap, there is no need. When more involved cleaning is necessary, I’ll put water in it and let sit, and then wipe clean. If there’s lots of crap stuck to it, sometimes I’ll heat the water to a simmer, although this tends to ruin the seasoning somewhat.

Think of it kind of like a barbecue surface (more accurately like a griddle), which people generally don’t soak in soapy water. I never do the “oil and then bake it” stuff, I don’t think it’s necessary.

I’m torn right now because I also just replaced my nonstick pants with a high quality $70 new nonstick pan, and then came across all these articles about PFAS. I usually only use nonstick for eggs and other delicate items but I’m paranoid now. I’m curious if anyone knows what percentage of exposure is via cookware compared to other environmental sources?

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#97

Post by ars »

autoexec wrote: post #82
ars wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm That isn't true. "Studies show that this coating contains a negligible amount of PFAS capable of migrating to food." https://www.fda.gov/food/chemical-contaminants-food/question... > Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them. This also isn't true. You can't heat your cookwa…

Even negligible amounts of something that never goes away and builds up in your blood is a problem.

It does not build up in your body, it builds up in the environment. The amount in your body is basically exactly the same as whatever environment you are in.

On top of that, how much PFOA would you imagine is even in a frying pan? It's already so little it's considered negligible, so unless you are buying new ones every day, even the negligible amount is not "building up".

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#98

Post by kragen »

itsangaris wrote: post #17
ok_dad wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just like teflon in basically every way. Hopefully not in the bad ways? Is the "ceramic coating" proven to not be harmful?

Ceramic itself is safe. Ultimately for a coating, the safety depends on what's underneath if/when it wears through.

In materials science "ceramic" means basically any inorganic, nonmetallic solid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Fundamental_aspects_o.... This includes perfectly safe materials like alumina, mullite, and silicon nitride, as well as things you definitely do not want in your food like lead oxide, lead zirconate titanate, barium titanate, uranium oxide, and beryllia.

So it is not accurate to say, "Ceramic itself is safe".

(I have no idea what is used in the surfaces of "ceramic" pans but it is unlikely to be any of the substances I listed above; they all have high surface energy.)

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#99

Post by pessimizer »

ars wrote: post #65
pessimizer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what's released from Teflon pans at high heat, but Teflon kills birds. I know this because I killed two birds by forgetting about a pan I was warming up. Wasn't enough to make the pan look any different; was enough to instantly kill the birds. https://www.teflon.com/en/consumers/teflon-coatings-cookware...

Hot oil also kills birds, and at a lower temperature than Teflon. So if you had been using oil with your pan the birds would have still died, and earlier than they did with the Teflon.

Do you have a reference for this?

edit: I know for a fact that these birds smelled a lot of food cooking and lived. Teflon killed them in the next room.

edit2: I should really bow out of this discussion. The fact that Teflon.com thinks that Teflon is a special worry if you have birds is enough for me. Judging by the content of their page on the subject, I'm going to assume that they decided that comparisons to burning mystery oils were spurious.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#100

Post by asdff »

samwillis wrote: post #6

Slightly off topic, I’m keen to dispose of our Teflon frying pan. Does anyone have a good recommendation for an alternative, ideally one that doesn’t take too much “maintenance”? We also have a Teflon milk pan but that is never used at a high tempriture so I’m less concerned about that.

I finally made the switch to triple clad stainless and i couldn't be happier. Kinda like a cast iron but a little less heavy for the larger pans (still much heavier than a cheapo set of steel pots), fast to heat up too and cooks really evenly with the thickened walls. They only get things stuck to them if you screw up your technique. Just a sponge and dish soap is all it needs most of the time.
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