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Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

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Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#61

Slightly off topic, I’m keen to dispose of our Teflon frying pan. Does anyone have a good recommendation for an alternative, ideally one that doesn’t take too much “maintenance”? We also have a Teflon milk pan but that is never used at a high tempriture so I’m less concerned about that.

I bought a cast iron thinking it would be a pain. its really not. they have came a long way. you can treat it like any other pan (besides being heavy) - you can use soap to clean it. - Dont get me wrong. treating it correctly will make it last a life time. i just store mine in the oven when ive finished washing it.

I’m not sure about general treatment, but one thing that you can’t do is let water sit in there, as it’ll rust.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer carbon steel more. They heat up faster and are smooth (unlike a lot of cast iron pans which are rough). But both works well enough.

Second carbon steel. Excellent pans, I don’t worry about seasoning too much - hit with steel wool and hit water when necessary. Still very little sticks if you use them enough.

Third that, the 360 ones from ikea are excellent. I use that, and a cast iron pan from costco for fish/meat/nabe

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#63
> Computer calculations by colleagues at the University of California, Los Angeles, revealed DMSO knocks off the carboxylic acid group. “Once that happens it causes the entire molecule to fall apart in a cascade of reactions,” Dichtel says.

Big if true. I'm slightly skeptical that just decarboxylating PFAS causes the rest of the backbone to "fall apart" - I would expect it to form CF3[CF2]· (carbon radical) which would readily react with water to form -H or -OH, which is basically back to square one. But maybe it can eliminate HF in the presence of UV, forming CF3[CH2]CF=CFOH, which gets hydrolyzed, oxidized, then cleaved, but boy is that an unfavorable process.

(edit: skimmed the paper, I was pretty close. Forms CF3[CF2]- which goes to CF3[CH2]CF=CF2 which then gets hydrolyzed, but...DMSO/NaOH at 80-120°C ...yikes. This is the ochem equivalent of "nuke the site from orbit", very few compounds survive these conditions)

I've been out of the chemistry game for a few years now so I'm a bit rusty but gut instinct is that this is far from a slam dunk. But anything to reduce FC's is a boon to the world, so I'm hopeful this is a breakthrough.

Edit2:

> This high fluoride recovery indicates that most of the perfluoroalkyl fluorines were defluorinated and mineralized rather than being transformed to smaller-chain PFAS or being lost as volatile fluorocarbons.

So the surprising thing isn't the decarboxylation, it's that NaOH encourages the perflourylalkenes to cleave at sites away from the alpha (splitting, rather than carbon-by-carbon), which is neat. Still doesn't touch PFOS, unfortunately.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#64

Slightly off topic, I’m keen to dispose of our Teflon frying pan. Does anyone have a good recommendation for an alternative, ideally one that doesn’t take too much “maintenance”? We also have a Teflon milk pan but that is never used at a high tempriture so I’m less concerned about that.

It depends on what you're worried about and what you want out of a pan. If you use wooden cooking utensils (spatula, chopsticks etc.), then just keep using the Teflon pan. It's fine as is and you won't scratch the coating.

If you want to use metal cookware, go for cast iron (heavy) or carbon steel (light). There's a lot online about how to season or maintain them -- you can safely ignore all of this advice. These are pans you can abuse. They're not as nonstick as Teflon so you still want to use some cooking oil, but that's about it. Both kinds may rust if there's humidity, but that's fine -- just wash before (instead of after) cooking and a bit of leftover rust is just a tad extra iron in your diet ;)

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#65
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High temperatures do not bother Teflon, there's no reason to dispose of it because of that. According to the EPA Teflon frying pans do not leech any PFOA into food, that's not where people are exposed. I've noticed that for some reason a ton of people think they get exposure to PFOA from cookware, and that's simply not true. PFOA exposure mainly comes from waterproofing coatings, slippery coatings (like the bottom of…

I don't know what's released from Teflon pans at high heat, but Teflon kills birds. I know this because I killed two birds by forgetting about a pan I was warming up. Wasn't enough to make the pan look any different; was enough to instantly kill the birds. https://www.teflon.com/en/consumers/teflon-coatings-cookware...

Hot oil also kills birds, and at a lower temperature than Teflon.

So if you had been using oil with your pan the birds would have still died, and earlier than they did with the Teflon.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#66
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High temperatures do not bother Teflon, there's no reason to dispose of it because of that. According to the EPA Teflon frying pans do not leech any PFOA into food, that's not where people are exposed. I've noticed that for some reason a ton of people think they get exposure to PFOA from cookware, and that's simply not true. PFOA exposure mainly comes from waterproofing coatings, slippery coatings (like the bottom of…

I don't know what's released from Teflon pans at high heat, but Teflon kills birds. I know this because I killed two birds by forgetting about a pan I was warming up. Wasn't enough to make the pan look any different; was enough to instantly kill the birds. https://www.teflon.com/en/consumers/teflon-coatings-cookware...

That's because birds are extremely sensitive to the air; it's how the phrase "canary in the coalmine", or just "canary", originated. The dosage required to kill a bird is a tiny fraction of that needed to cause a human to perceive anything.

That said, pyrolysis of fluorinated compounds does release very toxic substances, HF among one of them. On the other hand, the tradeoff is that below those temperatures at which they start degrading, they are extremely inert.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#67
post #33
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaching isn't the worry with non-stick coatings, flaking is. Everyone's seen pans flake off teflon into food.

Teflon is very non-reactive and any small pieces you ingest should pass through unchanged pretty quickly. You likely ingest a lot more plastic from other sources.

On the other hand, visible flakes of plastic in my food are kind of a bummer.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that the chemical primarily responsible for bird toxicity from PTFE pyrolysis is perfluoroisobutene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_fume_fever https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluoroisobutene Although acutely toxic, this substance is not a persistent "forever chemical" because there are multiple mechanisms that rapidly degrade it in the environment: https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Perfluoro…

While that's fair your link suggests it's found its way into schedule 2 of the chemical weapons convention. > Perfluoroisobutene is quite toxic with an LCt = 880 mg⋅min⋅m−3 (mice).[1] It is a Schedule 2 substance of the Chemical Weapons Convention. I don't know about you but I try and keep my ricin away from my breakfast foods. It is however reassuring that it'll be degraded in the environment.

> I don't know about you but I try and keep my ricin away from my breakfast foods.

To cause Teflon to degrade you have to heat the pan to over 500F / 260C.

No one cooks at those temperatures, even ovens don't go so high. You basically have to forget the pan on a high flame for a long time.

And the toxic chemicals you get from overheating oil are far worse, somehow everyone forgets about those.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#69
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought a cast iron thinking it would be a pain. its really not. they have came a long way. you can treat it like any other pan (besides being heavy) - you can use soap to clean it. - Dont get me wrong. treating it correctly will make it last a life time. i just store mine in the oven when ive finished washing it.

I’m not sure about general treatment, but one thing that you can’t do is let water sit in there, as it’ll rust.

Having rust is fine though, it's just oxidized iron. Sure it won't look pretty but it's largely harmless in food.

The main caveat I've seen is when making acidic foods with iron cookware (cast iron or carbon steel) it may affect the taste ever so slightly as some of the acid is reacted and takes off the top layer so you end up with a "stain" that looks like the food. Still just cosmetic only though.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#70

Slightly off topic, I’m keen to dispose of our Teflon frying pan. Does anyone have a good recommendation for an alternative, ideally one that doesn’t take too much “maintenance”? We also have a Teflon milk pan but that is never used at a high tempriture so I’m less concerned about that.

Cast iron or enameled cast iron. Cast iron really doesn't require much maintenance. You can season it and never wash it and be delicate with it like a fancy chef, or you can abuse the hell out of it and it doesn't matter because it's basically indestructible. The only thing you can't do is let it sit in water or run it through the dishwasher. I mean, you can, but it rusts… which also isn't that difficult to clean if…

If you simmer a half inch of water in a cast iron or enameled cast iron pan, you can scrape almost anything away with a soft spatula. Like new in no time. No soap needed.

Much faster than scrubbing.

There are a few thing that are still a pain though, like eggs and fish.

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