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Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

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Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has Chinese propaganda made it to hacker news?

Yes. Many commenters on such topics - including at least one in this thread - even identify as members of the 50 Cent Army in their profiles.

A couple of years ago I'd assume that someone who can't tell it's a joke wouldn't be able to create an account on HN, or - if they somehow succeeded - would die of suffocation by forgetting to breathe while writing a comment.

Nowadays I'm not sure anymore, so I tend to add "/s" in all but most obvious cases, like this one.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 words: national security. as the world's police and adult, we have to be self sufficient in food, tech, defense, resources, etc

> As the world’s police and adult I can’t tell if this is parody or not

A lot more adult of a superpower than say, China's petulant behavior. The US is a mostly benign superpower in comparison. People like to say the US is violent and imperialist and what not, but it's a lot less so and a lot more benevolent than any prior superpower has been in past centuries. Ignoring the past and looking at the future, just look at how China is going all gung ho at the silliest perceived slight, going into petty trade wars with major trading partners over the silliest things (Australia inquiries into the origin of COVID).

So realistically, there's not a lot of "maturity" on the geopolitical world stage. The US is objectively on the "adult" spectrum.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China holds US debt denominated in dollars, which is different from eg holding Sri Lankan debt denominated in dollars. In the US case, the government can issue more treasuries to cover payments or if things are dire they can just print more dollars. Sri Lanka can’t make new dollars so they need to get them through trade and if they have an imbalance there it can be very hard. I think it isn’t really very relevant to…

Printing more dollars leads to inflation.

It does, but then China can't use their debt holding as a weapon. China is incentivized to keep the dollar stable relative to the yuan, because crashing the dollar would hurt China a lot, and propping up the dollar also would. The whole debt holding is a lot more of a rent-seeking arrangement. Both the debtor and debtee are better off keeping the status quo. Plus China doesn't exactly have the capital to do anything about it. Their own economy is in a debt spiral only kept from crashing by huge government intervention and very tight forex capital controls.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vietnam is the most proven country at defeating a super power militarily.

Westmoreland's Operation Fracture Jaw got canned by elite circle in politics and the rest is Rambo Hollywood history boomer tears in beers.

I hadn’t heard of it. What a terrible plan.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#555

I don't really see what the problem is with offshoring. If other people elsewhere want to work for cheaper, then it's fair competition. It's not like protectionism would work long term anyways. And in this particular case, Vietnam is more aligned with the US than China, geopolitically, so this makes a lot of sense.

Nobody does until it affects them personally or unless they have some compassion for others in their country who don't have the same opportunities and skillset as you. Many of the drugged out people on the street without homes or a future could have been hard working factory workers but wealthy people thought it would be better to save a few bucks and boost their own paychecks by offshoring.

Personally I think it's entirely fair if someone in another country is allowed to compete on the world market and provide a service for cheaper. It makes economical sense for them as they'll improve their living standards by quite a lot. So you could say that I have compassion for everyone else in the world who isn't born a US citizen and needs to scrape by from much diminished opportunities to begin with.

The offshoring country indeed loses jobs and the jobless need to handle this situation. Some will end up drugged out in the street. I'd argue that these drugged off people aren't that much the fault of corporate leaders who cut costs by offshoring. I'd say the drugged off people are jointly responsible for their fate, along with governmental policies that offer no social net while also not wanting to take any action to prevent spiraling delinquency.

If you look around the world, not every person who loses their job ends up drugged off and homeless. In many places, people are quite poor and don't end up this way. Most people lose their jobs and turn around and figure something out. And then some people can't deal with the hit and don't have what it takes to handle and end up drugged out in the streets. There's some self responsibility going on here that allows this to go down this path. And there's some social policy at play too. In another country, you could only fall so far down before something makes it harder for you to go further down. Either there's strong social nets, or there's just strong anti-drugs laws, or all kinds of debatable policies.. but many of these policies help prevent people getting so low that they can't come back up.

Why is the poor trade worker in VN, living in a metal shed, able to handle abject poverty with dignity, and then get an offshored job and thrive... but the US worker loses their job, has 10x better economical opportunities than the VN worker but ends up drugged out in the street. This isn't a real argument as there are people heading down a self-destructive path everywhere in the world. But I can't help but think that a lot of self-pity has to do with one's own perceived expectations for higher standards and inability to accept loss.

Ultimately, I can't help but think it's an infantilizing argument to say that the hard working factory workers who become junkies, are junkies because someone offshored their job. Because this supposes that they had no agency into doing anything about it, they were doomed to become junkies. This also supposes that a variety of things could have easily knocked them off the good path. That they were fragile and had no recourse or control over their destiny. If it wasn't a CEO offshoring their job, it would have been some other hurdle. And I don't buy this, I don't think the average hard working factory worker is such a fragile person, whose entirely at the mercy and requires the protection of a patronizing CEO.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#556

I don't really see what the problem is with offshoring. If other people elsewhere want to work for cheaper, then it's fair competition. It's not like protectionism would work long term anyways. And in this particular case, Vietnam is more aligned with the US than China, geopolitically, so this makes a lot of sense.

We offshore, but only the pleb stuff. God forbid you want to get a degree in a foreign country, or import medicine, or a doctor. Ask to do any of those and it's protectionism all day long.

I think it's a pendulum. Wait some decades and centuries and that stuff too will get "offshored" elsewhere. And then move between areas, and so on. It used to be that the Arab world was where all the science and math was done. Now it's the bottom of the food chain. It used to be that the Britts were cheaper and faster at building ships, displacing the Dutch's and becoming the world's leader. Now they can't build anything competitively. It used to be that China was the source of most technology, while Europe was stuck in feudal wars. Then they were outpaced by industrializing nations. Now they're mostly manufacturing and develop limited intellectual property. It used to be that Americans studied in Europe to get a proper education. Now the US has the best universities in the world.

I think resistance to offshoring is a natural reflex that's entirely futile.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you slowly shift your economy out from underneath you and effectively give it away. In the process you lose the ability to have any of these core competencies yourself. In the end what’s the point of having cheaper products if no one has a job to buy them.

> In the process you lose the ability to have any of these core competencies yourself. Nonsense. The US could obtain the core competencies themselves and indeed will as globalization winds down. People will never stop coming to the US for opportunity.

> People will never stop coming to the US for opportunity.

Is true _as long as the US continues to understand this_ and doesn't change its stance on immigration and business and open markets. The US will win as long as it's the country where the best of this world are invited and able to come and do their best work.

On the other hand, I don't see China having any chance at beating the US on that front anytime soon. Mandarin is too hard to learn for immigrants, and the racism and lack of freedom is entirely unpalatable to most immigrants. Aside from finance types moving to Shanghai, I'm not sure who would want to move to China if they have the opportunity to move to the US instead. (well, I know many do, but let's just say the quantities are incomparable)

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#558
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where were Apple Watch and MacBook made before Vietnam? Is the answer just China and nowhere else? How much does it cost in that location now compared to what it's going to cost now to make it in Vietnam? How many Vietnam workers is this going to employ, and are they going to be working for like... $3/day?

More like $20 a day. But its still dirt cheap compare to developed countries.

for how many hours a day, with what kind of PTO/benefits?

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#559
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is spending $275B to advance Chinese manufacturing.[0] They can easily afford 1/10th of that to build a fab that's ready in five years right here in the US if they wanted to. (Las Vegas is ideal, no natural disasters of any kind.) Hell, they could write a check and buy Intel outright. [0] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/report-apple-ceo-tim...

Las Vegas is currently having their water coming from the Colorado River (and reservoirs fed by it) limited, along with several other states and Mexico. If I were a betting man, I'd bet it will get worse in the near future. https://www.ktnv.com/news/u-s-department-of-interior-declare...

Getting far off topic here, but Las Vegas is one of the safest water supplies.

There is the often quoted statistic that Las Vegas gets 90% of its water from Lake Mead/Colorado River. But Las Vegas reclaims and recycles 99% of consumed water and pumps it back into the lake via the Lake Mead Wash.

Because they get 99 return-flow credits for every 100 gallons, any draw limits from the watershed will have minimal impact.

Las Vegas also has a large groundwater table that supplies 25% of its peak summer demand.

As a last resort, the Casinos will never let the city run dry. While they only consume 6-7% of the cities water, they depend on their employees being able to live in the city to keep operating.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#560
post #468

Good for Vietnam. I visited the country in 2016 and fell in love with it, going back two more times. I’ve never seen a more hardworking, yet friendly people. They deserve all the success in the world.

Slightly off topic but a youtube "DIY man built his own yacht with scrap materials in just 90 days" https://interestingengineering.com/video/yacht-scrap-materia... was cool and reminded me of the guys who fixed my scooter in Vietnam for about 30p a time.

I have seen some amazing work with my own eyes. Like buying a rusted farm implement from one vendor in a market and taking it to another to have it sharpened and getting back what was basically a brand new scythe.

But the vast majority of these amazing "look what I built" videos from Vietnam are staged and are actually the work of production companies with teams of people. Here is an expose of the primitive building genre where this got its start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvk63LADbFc

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