Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook • Hacker News Board

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#81

Post by LtWorf » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 9:25 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #38

mgraczyk wrote: post #19

A lot of comments here are criticizing Apple for chasing cheap labor. Ignoring for a second the fact that this has a lot more to do with geopolitics and hedging geopolitical risk, I think it's important to think more carefully about the impact of companies investing in developing economies. By and large, the factory work done by people in developing economies is dramatically better in terms of quality of life and saf…

There is a lot of dishonesty around Westerners complaining about foreign cheap labor. They claim to be championing labor rights, but they are often just angered at companies for stopping all manufacturing in the West. They see it as an obvious weakness in their ideology that companies can just walk away from their labor movement and go elsewhere. The obvious truth, and what literally all of these Vietnamese workers w…

But now we can't build anything and if china embargoes us, we're doomed.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#82

Post by wbsss4412 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 9:25 PM UTC

surfpel wrote: post #56

koheripbal wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of dishonesty around Westerners complaining about foreign cheap labor. They claim to be championing labor rights, but they are often just angered at companies for stopping all manufacturing in the West. They see it as an obvious weakness in their ideology that companies can just walk away from their labor movement and go elsewhere. The obvious truth, and what literally all of these Vietnamese workers w…

> There is a lot of dishonesty around Westerners complaining about foreign cheap labor. This is a strawman. You're conflating different groups of people with different interests. Some people complain about labor conditions, some people complain that jobs are leaving the country. Almost nobody is "dishonest" about this.

There are plenty of people who are extremely selective with regards to their outrage on each issue, though.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#83

Post by wwweston » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 9:26 PM UTC

pishpash wrote: post #41

eej71 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, the decline in needing cheap labor is going to be a problem for large countries like China. China needed those cheap labor factories to be the engine to help lift people out of rural poverty. Unfortunately that engine will now falter and many will be left behind. For an eye opening survey here, I highly recommend the book Invisible China.

If they are poorer than people in Vietnam they can just go to Vietnam to work. That's not that much different than going to southern China to work. It is almost a common market.

Labor rarely has the mobility that capital does, especially when international borders are involved.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#84

Post by Sakos » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 9:26 PM UTC

mgraczyk wrote: post #19

A lot of comments here are criticizing Apple for chasing cheap labor. Ignoring for a second the fact that this has a lot more to do with geopolitics and hedging geopolitical risk, I think it's important to think more carefully about the impact of companies investing in developing economies. By and large, the factory work done by people in developing economies is dramatically better in terms of quality of life and saf…

China was literally able to lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty with all the manufacturing that was moved there. I think most people don't understand anything about economics. Vietnam absolutely wants and will benefit from an increasingly industrialized economy.

edit: I'm seeing a number of comments pointing out how these are companies owned by Koreans. Which maybe isn't optimal, but the potential for knowledge transfer coupled with investment in infrastructure and logistics chains is a great opportunity that just needs to be used well.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#85

Post by LtWorf » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 9:26 PM UTC

tasubotadas wrote: post #25

mgraczyk wrote: post #19

A lot of comments here are criticizing Apple for chasing cheap labor. Ignoring for a second the fact that this has a lot more to do with geopolitics and hedging geopolitical risk, I think it's important to think more carefully about the impact of companies investing in developing economies. By and large, the factory work done by people in developing economies is dramatically better in terms of quality of life and saf…

Capitalism is one of the biggest eradicators of poverty. 1B of people in China was lifted from poverty because of it. And once it's done with one poor country, it starts taking care of the others :)

Capitalism with a strong central government that regulates it tightly you mean.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#86

Post by wbsss4412 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

tasubotadas wrote: post #25

mgraczyk wrote: post #19

A lot of comments here are criticizing Apple for chasing cheap labor. Ignoring for a second the fact that this has a lot more to do with geopolitics and hedging geopolitical risk, I think it's important to think more carefully about the impact of companies investing in developing economies. By and large, the factory work done by people in developing economies is dramatically better in terms of quality of life and saf…

Capitalism is one of the biggest eradicators of poverty. 1B of people in China was lifted from poverty because of it. And once it's done with one poor country, it starts taking care of the others :)

The China duality: It seems that China is a capitalist country when people want to discuss their achievements, and a communist country when they want to discuss their faults.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#87

Post by mr_toad » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

robin_reala wrote: post #40

CameronNemo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.

I’m no great defender of capitalism, but feudalism did a great job at that a long time before capitalism.

Or any system where owners of property could extract profit by employing non-owners of property. Much of the strife in the later Roman Empire was caused by large property owners exploiting slaves and depriving non land owners (including many legionaries) of a chance of making an income. Said legionaries and other plebeians supported politicians with a policy of land reforms.

Not to mention the poverty of the slaves themselves.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#88

Post by LtWorf » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

gleenn wrote: post #27

How is no one mentioning that China is threatening Taiwan. If the US ends up in a war with China, suddenly most Apple products would have serious operations problems if not being shut off completely. Cheap labor isn't a bad reason, but this is also a hedge against the heating politics between the West and both Russia and China.

No post body was provided.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#89

Post by extragood » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 9:31 PM UTC

CameronNemo wrote: post #34

tasubotadas wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism is one of the biggest eradicators of poverty. 1B of people in China was lifted from poverty because of it. And once it's done with one poor country, it starts taking care of the others :)

.

There's an interesting argument in 'Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind' [1] that capitalism is primarily responsible for the Enlightenment period in Europe. By the same token it may also be associated with some of the worst aspects of (relatively) recent history, such as colonialism and the slave trade.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23692271-sapiens

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#90

Post by dan-robertson » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #62

chaosbutters314 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 words: national security. as the world's police and adult, we have to be self sufficient in food, tech, defense, resources, etc

And good luck with that with China holding so much of our debt. Military leaders in the US for decades has been warning politicians that our debt is one of our biggest threats.

China holds US debt denominated in dollars, which is different from eg holding Sri Lankan debt denominated in dollars. In the US case, the government can issue more treasuries to cover payments or if things are dire they can just print more dollars. Sri Lanka can’t make new dollars so they need to get them through trade and if they have an imbalance there it can be very hard.

I think it isn’t really very relevant to think about China holding US government debt because it isn’t like they will call up the bailiffs or otherwise be able to exercise control over the US because of that debt. I think it would be basically equivalent to say that China holds US dollars which doesn’t feel particularly concerning to me.