Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer • Hacker News Board

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#311

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:50 AM UTC

woevdbz wrote: post #282

Dig1t wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with your conclusion, this is why I feel that European tech companies can't compete with US ones at all. They just refuse to pay enough to attract the best engineers.

Having worked in both US and Europe I think this is very much less about average engineer and much more about engineering management and product management. There are many excellent software engineers in Europe already, and they are generally OK being paid much less than in the US. But the strategy, ambition, and execution discipline imparted by management are not there, so folks end up being underutilized there. The…

Yes, in the industry Euro engineers are considered to be generally high quality and underpaid. A good value. The danger being there are awful ones too that are hard to fire. In my experience Euro devs are really good though if you interview well. Individual contributors from Europe are generally a great value.

Euro managers however are generally thought to be of extremely low quality and unreliable as well as 20-30 years dated in terms of running an org. Except at the top, never rely on senior or middle management in Euro to be much more than followers. Never let them run an org unless you really know them as their management techniques do not apply to modern software companies. Managers from Europe are generally of poor quality.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#312

Post by rdtwo » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:52 AM UTC

cavisne wrote: post #301

vanilla_nut wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If recent US policy is any indication, it's far more likely that we'll give them billions of dollars of direct subsidy in a misguided attempt "protect American interests."

Maybe not. A lot of the lobbying from Ford/GM around electric car subsidies is based around the companies actually selling electric cars. The board & management may have that plan but until they can sell electric cars that a) exist and b) dont spontaneously combust they wont get significant subsidies.

Yeah the fire thing isn’t ideal. Buy hey Toyota has wheels falling off their ev so yeah…

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#313

Post by TMWNN » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:52 AM UTC

mattkrause wrote: post #298

boc wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the general online sentiment, it's important to realize that the average American makes an absurd amount of money compared to their global peers. Even adjusting for PPP and other factors, average disposable household income for the US - a nation of 340M people - blows the doors off Luxembourg, Switzerland, Norway, etc. [1]. What's more though, median disposable income per capita ALSO places the US at the very…

That “adjustment” is really tricky to do convincingly. I’ve been trying to compare an offer in the US and one in Montreal. The raw number for the US blows Canada out of the water, obviously, but adding in healthcare and childcare really starts to close the gap. That’s at least sort of calculable, especially if you ignore their option values, but it’s harder to price in other intangibles, like living somewhere walkabl…

>I’ve been trying to compare an offer in the US and one in Montreal. The raw number for the US blows Canada out of the water, obviously, but adding in healthcare and childcare really starts to close the gap.

The disposable income figure that boc quoted includes things like healthcare.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#314

Post by TMWNN » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:53 AM UTC

dieselgate wrote: post #267

boc wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the general online sentiment, it's important to realize that the average American makes an absurd amount of money compared to their global peers. Even adjusting for PPP and other factors, average disposable household income for the US - a nation of 340M people - blows the doors off Luxembourg, Switzerland, Norway, etc. [1]. What's more though, median disposable income per capita ALSO places the US at the very…

Yeah I guess so but we (americans) also have to worry about healthcare and having (basically) no parental leave etc so always kind of figured it wasn’t as good as it sounds. Open to interpretation maybe. Was under the impression Australians are paid very well in comparison? Like pretty good minimum wages and holidays - in addition to lucrative trades work. Just have personal experience to vouch for his though.

>Yeah I guess so but we (americans) also have to worry about healthcare

The disposable income figure that boc quoted includes things like healthcare.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#315

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:53 AM UTC

dieselgate wrote: post #267

boc wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the general online sentiment, it's important to realize that the average American makes an absurd amount of money compared to their global peers. Even adjusting for PPP and other factors, average disposable household income for the US - a nation of 340M people - blows the doors off Luxembourg, Switzerland, Norway, etc. [1]. What's more though, median disposable income per capita ALSO places the US at the very…

Yeah I guess so but we (americans) also have to worry about healthcare and having (basically) no parental leave etc so always kind of figured it wasn’t as good as it sounds. Open to interpretation maybe. Was under the impression Australians are paid very well in comparison? Like pretty good minimum wages and holidays - in addition to lucrative trades work. Just have personal experience to vouch for his though.

Most tech companies here have 3-4 months of parental leave and have free or nearly free healthcare.

High value workers in the USA are the best compensated in the world by a wide margin. Other places are better for low value workers.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#316

Post by AlotOfReading » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:53 AM UTC

Kon-Peki wrote: post #302

AlotOfReading wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of these traditional manufacturing OEMs have software outfits in the bay that clutter up my LinkedIn inbox. They're usually offering 130-170k with limited to no additional compensation in the same cities where FAANG is paying 100k+ over their rates in base alone. It's not just that they're doing silly regional surveys, they have fundamental misunderstandings of market rates.

My brother-in-law is pretty high up at a traditional manufacturing OEM. To be clear, they don't manufacture anything that has electronics or software in it (but there is a pretty decent chance your car has something they made). They have a Bay Area software office that does general tech stuff - manufacturing software, business software, etc. Internal things plus some B2C stuff for people buying/installing replacement…

I know they're not stupid, but it's still very frustrating when you have to go and use anything such offices produce. So many unnecessarily cut corners and penny wise, pound foolish decisions.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#317

Post by bonestamp2 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:55 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #144

bonestamp2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of automakers are chasing Tesla's one screen design -- they're so envious of the cost savings there. Except the Germans, they're still putting in lots of buttons and knobs -- my next car will likely be German because they seem to understand what people actually want.

Have you driven a Tesla much? The general UX intent is that you're not supposed to need to interact with the screen while driving. Wipers are automatic, lights are automatic (both can be pulsed with the stalks of course). Virtually everything responds to voice commands ("Play Stairway to Heaven", "Navigate to Albertsons", "Set temperature to 72", etc...). All this stuff works really well. I won't engage with "what pe…

> I won't engage with "what people actually want" except to point to sales figures, I guess.

I'd say that a person's first purchase of a Tesla only signals what they think they want. If they buy another one after the first then I'd agree it is actually what they want, or at least they like the other benefits of the Tesla enough to outweigh anything they don't like.

I believe I fully understand the new paradigm. I had a 2018 Volvo XC90 and it's sort of a hybrid between the new and old paradigm. They have a fairly large screen (not as large as Tesla) and then a handful of buttons for functions that are fairly important if something is wrong with the screen (front window defrost, rear window defog, etc). I sold it after a year because I did not like it.

It also supported voice control for all of these features, as did my BMW before that, as does my current vehicle. Voice control sucks to varying degrees on all of these vehicles, and if someone in the car is talking or you're on a phone call, you can't adjust things with your voice. I'd rather just have buttons and knobs with tactile feedback that are always available.

But it's true, maybe other people don't want tactile controls. I mean, UX in general tends to disagree with this notion, but the iPhone beat the blackberry so it's possible that my in vehicle preferences are not what everyone wants.

Either way, the automakers win with lower costs.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#318

Post by clouddrover » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:55 AM UTC

cavisne wrote: post #300

As much as Tesla's stock prices is inflated a lot of people dont appreciate just how behind the other car companies are when it comes to electric cars. Non tesla fast charging is an absolute disaster, likewise most/all of these companies havent figured out how to update software without plugging in a usb stick at a dealership. Maybe electric cars will be more like Apple/Samsung in terms of market share then the curre…

> Non tesla fast charging is an absolute disaster

Doesn't seem to be. Tesla's chargers have been behind the curve versus others with lower speeds, still only 400 volts, and only supporting one brand of car. Tesla is at least slowly starting to support other brands:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ

But Circle K, Gridserve, Ionity, etc. are better charging stops with faster chargers:

- Circle K: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TVohXHjLro

- Gridserve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoN4WCpuxHY

- Ionity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UAttTG03WA

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#319

Post by bonestamp2 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:58 AM UTC

jonnybgood wrote: post #201

bonestamp2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of automakers are chasing Tesla's one screen design -- they're so envious of the cost savings there. Except the Germans, they're still putting in lots of buttons and knobs -- my next car will likely be German because they seem to understand what people actually want.

Have you not seen the interior of a Porsche Taycan? German makes are definitely moving in the same direction because it actually is what people want. They just move slower.

Cadillac went away from tactile controls in 2012 and they reversed their course in the following generation. People think it is what they want, until they have to live with it. The automakers are happy to oblige since virtually every dept loves them for different reasons.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#320

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:58 AM UTC

jesuscript wrote: post #249

sleepydog wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any professions in European countries that are paid as well as US tech workers, for similar levels of skill and/or education? Moreover, if EU tech companies are not willing to pay the best software/hardware engineers what they're worth, where do they all go? Not everyone wants to live in the US or work remotely.

I think even their doctors are paid lower than US counterparts. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. There’s two ways to look at this. The first way is the shallow way, the raw numbers. The other way is that Europeans have a better social ethics and don’t need the gaudy numbers. Americans do. We don’t have a real culture of social welfare. We value capitalism unlike any other country in the world.

Euro doctors are significantly underpaid. Euro knows this and the reason you don’t see doctors coming to the USA is that the medical board would require them to retest. Indian doctors don’t mind so they come over and study again.

My hope is the USA changes the law so doctors from Western Europe countries can freely emigrate to the USA and practice for significantly more money. There’s no reason the USA shouldn’t drain Europe of this talent by offering far more money to these workers.