Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

I love and hate this.

I like it because it is an objectively good thing. Caste is still a major issue in non-urban lower-middle class communities in India. While you're unlikely to see people from that economic starta at FANG companies (privilege leads to more privilege), you do see these problems arise in tier-2 companies who hire large numbers of vendors and temporary Infosys/IBM consultancy hires.

I hate it because it seems completely mistargetted an almost purposely malicious. I have spent my entire life among tech communities in India and the US, and caste simply never comes up. The type of people who get a job at Apple (FANG-companies) are usually from the far-far upper crust of Indian society that has usually moved past caste as a marker for class. I'm supposed to come from a lower-caste community, and I have NEVER been asked my caste and I have never felt excluded because of it in any Indian community in the US.

The loudest voices in this movement seem to be grifters who have no handle over the nature of discrimination faced by various Indian minority communities in the US or in India. They do not understand the intersectionality of various Indian identities an last and most importantly, they completely ignore new 'caste' systems developing among ethnic-Indian tech communities. The studies they publish are of a pathetic technical quality and the liberal pre-dispositions of the tech community mean that their claims are accepted with very little scrutiny.

I'll try my best to outline some types of discrimination / tribalism / culture-fit preferences and the emerging new caste/class system that I do actually see. (These are anecdotes, and not always 100% true)

1. 2nd vs 1st gen Indians

This is a prominent cultural gap. Survivalist-middle-class systems take a while to shed old perceptions. If your parents fled 'low class India' to give you a first world life, then the new immigrants land on a lower rung in your perceived class hierarchy. Indians are also deeply resentful/insecure about how they're perceived in media, and I suspect 2nd generation 'integrated' Indians feel some shame towards the perpetual faux-pas' of the fresh-off-the-boat immigrants. I have often found it easier to form connections with random white-people than 2nd gen Indians. Took me a while to even figure out what that weird sense of discomfort even was.

2. IIT-ians+ vs local-universities

This is a rising and prominent 1st gen Indian caste system. The ruthless meritocratic mentality of survivalist middle-class systems is directly to blame for this. After 20 years of being told that the IITs are the be-all-end-all of life, it leads to the natural formation of upper tier of Indians in the US. It doesn't help that certain universities like UC Berkeley or UMich are known to reject almost every non-IITian applicant. I personally know non-IITians at FANG companies who felt bullied (whether intentionally or not) as the only person from a small university in India in their group/team.

3. Reservations and the caste systems 2nd wind

This is the most prominent form of REAL caste discrimination that I've seen in the US. India has explicit affirmative action. Being completely blunt, it gives a massive advantage to lower-castes to get into premier Indian universities like IITs (to offset a very real socio-economic handicap). The brutal meritocracy rears it ugly head again as groups who missed out on a big opportunity feel resentful when someone with a significantly lower score gets in. This leads to an inherent bias where groups without affirmative action will not respect someone with a respectable profile on paper because they suspect that the person got in "unfairly". (I am merely commenting on how these perceptions develop. Not making a value judgement 1 way or another.)

Then there are other types of tribalism that are rampant in all communities. Linguistic & regional Nepotism; cultural integration = fluency in English, lack of a thick accent (I'd say even a southern drawl is looked down upon); preference towards in-groups (highly liberal, dress/present a certain way, hiring from alma matter). All of these signal that you come from privilege and have spent long enough among the cultural elites to have adopted their mannerisms.

One caveat is that 'capital-C-Caste' is very much very much an issue within certain parts of India and the nature of it in those situations is horrifying. None of my comments are meant to minimize their experience. Also, the affirmative-action candidates that I met in my time at a decent-indian-university were all incredibly hard working and came from some of most difficult socio-economic conditions that I know of. Massive respect to them and the meritocratic-resentment-driven-discrimination they face is pretty underserved.

Razib Khan (2nd gen American) goes into fantastic detail [1] [2] about the nature of the caste system (or lack thereof) both in the US and India. I would highly recommend that people check out his work/twitter.

[1] https://unherd.com/2022/06/americas-fake-caste-war/

[2] https://unherd.com/2020/09/how-brahmins-lead-the-fight-again...

[3] more here - https://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/caste/

Name is the biggest marker of all. Last name can give away the case pretty accurately. There are certain parts of India that don't use the traditional family name but even in that case, certain first names are more common among certain groups. (I'm pretty sure I have received mild positive discrimination - more like favorable pre-judgement - based on my name.)

I think this is a reason why Leetcode style interviews are popular. They remove at least one type of bias of race - the ability to solve coding problems. If you can solve Online Assessment, Phone Assessment and Onsites, you keep moving on to the next round, regardless of your race or ethnicity. It is a way for companies to claim that there is no bias in hiring.

The real shame is that living in Delhi, I’ve seen caste come back very strongly in everyday discourse.

I’ve been here almost 20 years. This city used to be largely caste agnostic.

Now when I meet new people, especially outside the elite tech circles, they will casually mention their upper caste status (“As Brahmins, we don’t do xyz of course!”).

Even cars carrying caste stickers are more common.