Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#101

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

zeroth32 wrote: post #45

> lawsuit about alleged casteism Why is it just not called racism? Introducing new terms kind of derails the problem. India (and Africa, China, Asia...) has a system where people with lighter skin are consider as "better". People with fair (whiter) skin are considered aristocracy, that never had to work outside on fields. And castes could not intermarry for couple of thousands of years, it is legitimate to consider t…

> Why is it just not called racism?

You have a point. But Apple doesn’t want to continuously debate caste vs. race (they’re both social constructs). For statute, it should suffice to incorporate caste as an aspect of race.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#102

Post by dimitrios1 » Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

frostwarrior wrote: post #46

dimitrios1 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You are treading dangerous waters here. Why paying a decent wage and have a nice work-life balance when there are people in the 3rd word working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week and for pennies? Worker's rights should expand towards the world, not the other way around.

There's a balance to have. I tried to focus more on tech industry. Tech industry is paying well beyond decent wage. You have to take things in perspective. You are comparing apples to oranges. Again I am not disagreeing with expanding workers rights.

Beyond any of these discussions, I was attempting to make an objective observation: The current status of American corporations value those who will put in more hours, and in general, are less demanding. It's just kind of the facts. Again, we can debate why this is ad nasuem, H1Bs, migrant labor in general, history of labor unions, capitalism, etc etc etc etc. But as it stands today, someone who will tell their boss "yes, I'll get that done", especially after hours or beyond standard expectations will get promoted more often than not. It's just the way it is. It's not a statement of right/wrong.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#103

Post by honkdaddy » Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

dimitrios1 wrote: post #51

ggdxdswgb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attributing characterstics to popultions of hundreds of millions based on anecdotal data from a handful cannot be accurate, just perpetuates stereotypes and doesn't help.

If you are stereotypically a hard worker, selfless, and familial, this is bad and doesn't help? Doesn't help what?

In this specific case sure, most Indians probably wouldn't be offended by being associated with those qualities because they're almost universally positive.

It very quickly gets murky though, since most racial or geographical stereotypes _aren't_ totally positive, and making observations about different groups will usually end up drawing the ire of at least a couple folks.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#104

Post by zeroth32 » Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

_fat_santa wrote: post #67

zeroth32 wrote: post #45

> lawsuit about alleged casteism Why is it just not called racism? Introducing new terms kind of derails the problem. India (and Africa, China, Asia...) has a system where people with lighter skin are consider as "better". People with fair (whiter) skin are considered aristocracy, that never had to work outside on fields. And castes could not intermarry for couple of thousands of years, it is legitimate to consider t…

> Why is it just not called racism? Introducing new terms kind of derails the problem. Casteism is the correct term for this. This isn't a different race of people, it's the same race of people in a different class. I agree with you that there are many similarities between Casteism and Racism, but I think it's good to separate it out. From what I've learned on the topic, with Racism someone sees the color of your ski…

Suing tech giant for racism is way more punchy, there are already laws and precedences... Educating people about "racism of a new type" is pretty complicated.

Reductionist approach "skin color"=="race" can be easily debunked. Could white German be ever racist to white Jew?

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#105

Post by someguydave » Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #59

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Casteism, while bad, is not racism Open to this argument. But every definition of race I’ve seen constructed to exclude caste seems contrived. The system has imprinted itself as far down as hair shaft diameter [1]. > Saying casteism is ingrained in Indians on the other hand is racism Sympathetic to this. It’s like saying all white people are racist. It’s ingrained in the Indian culture, and I think anyone coming fr…

There are some correlations between phenotypes and caste (and there is a lot of genetic stratification when you look at ancestry), but caste really cuts across race - there are lower caste groups in North India that look more "white" than upper caste groups in South India.

If by race or caste you mean “measurably distinct genetic groupings” then they are pretty similar.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#106

Post by wobbleblob » Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

FactolSarin wrote: post #41

Out of curiosity, for Indians working in America, how hard is it to hide your caste or pretend to be of another caste altogether? Is this something that comes up in conversation among Indians? Do names tend to correlate to you caste? And if so, do people change them as a way of hiding their family caste?

I thought people lose their caste when they cross the "black water".

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#107

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #97

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are lower caste groups in North India that look more "white" than upper caste groups in South India Definitions of race don’t require a skin-color gradient. Plenty of Asians are lighter skinned than white Mediterraneans.

I'm not just talking about skin color.

> not just talking about skin color

Steve Jobs is ethnically Syrian. Most people would call him white. The fact that some e.g. North Africans may fit the classic conception of whiteness better than many Europeans doesn’t dissolve every racial boundary therebetween.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#108

Post by ChrisRR » Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

zeroth32 wrote: post #96

ChrisRR wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you don't understand a term, doesn't mean you can just swap it for a term that you do understand. Go read up on what the caste system is, its history and how it effects life within India. It seems you'll learn something new.

I understand casteism, I worked with indian devs for two decades. I would suggest you to read what Gandi said about negros. I have a news for you; "brown" people can be racist too. White westerners do not have a monopoly on racism!

I never said that Indian people can't be racist. I'm sure they can be racist, caste-ist or whatever the hell "ist" they like. But that doesn't automatically make them the same thing

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#109

Post by adolph » Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

Moodles wrote: post #72

happytoexplain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great example of the kind of hyper-reactivity that makes conversation on most of the internet absolutely impossible. The parent said they didn't see this in the article, don't imagine they'd gain from it, and asked for more info about it - all totally reasonable thoughts and expressed without negativity. And yet you responded with snide superiority, as though your dialogue with this person was already an ar…

100%. I found the books “how to have impossible conversations” and “crucial conversations” helpful for me, but in a nutshell they’re basically “say things in a way that protect the other side’s ego”

Do they go into ego-injury detection? I get blind sided by alternative interpretations all the time.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#110

Post by dimitrios1 » Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 2:18 PM UTC

310260 wrote: post #82

dimitrios1 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I pre-empted these types of debates by saying we can split hairs on why this is. I am not denying this is the case for some, but also it's not the entire picture. I know plenty non-H1Bs that fit this bill, and there have been plenty of articles written on the rise of the Indian-American worker, especially in the tech sector https://www.southasiamonitor.org/spotlight/unprecedented-ris... , use your favorite sea…

These scenarios are the case for many Indian people and others working in the US. It's not an edge case. There are no hairs to split when immigration and citizenship status are integral to why people might act the way they do...

It's how migrant families (including my own) always have been here. They have always been willing to put in more, even when they clearly are aware they are being taken advantaged of (by the American standards, of course). I am 1st generation, and I can tell you right now, I would never work 13 hour days every week for years on end without a vacation like my father did. And that's a good thing, of course. But again, my comment was intended to be an observation more than anything.