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Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

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Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#91

looks the other way when Indian director has all Indian SDMs reporting to him It’s all lip service. Nepotism is rampant at FAANG

>looks the other way when Indian director has all Indian SDMs reporting to him

I've seen it happen so many times now that I can call it ahead of time. Critical mass is when you get a VP. From there, you go from representational levels to >50% Indian in a matter of months.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#92
This is good. I don't know how effective it will be in practice however since all forms of outlawed discrimination largely end up in the "culture fit" bucket.

"Culture fit" is really insidious. Like many forms of discrimination I don't think it's even necessarily a conscious bias but this absolutely still exists (eg [1]). "Culture fit" is an umbrella for de facto racism, sexism, ageism and classism.

[1]: https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/08/18/name-discriminati...

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#94

Out of curiosity, for Indians working in America, how hard is it to hide your caste or pretend to be of another caste altogether? Is this something that comes up in conversation among Indians? Do names tend to correlate to you caste? And if so, do people change them as a way of hiding their family caste?

Names in some regions of India correlate strongly with caste. Physical appearance can also be somewhat suggestive. There are however regions in India that have given up the use of last names are adopted new last names as a counter to casteism. Diet also tends to be somewhat indicative - in regions without high prevalence of vegetarianism, castes with high ritual status tend to be vegetarian.

A barrier to casteism in the diaspora (and in higher class circles in cosmopolitan cities in India) is that an Indian from one region of India is unlikely to know the last names of Indians from other regions of India. Likewise with diet, many Brahmins from a vegetarian background adopt a non-vegetarian diet so it's really not a useful distinguisher.

FWIW, I haven't perceived any casteism in tech companies, or anyone trying to ask my caste, and I have an ambiguous last name and eat a meat-heavy diet. There's a decent chance my experiences would be different if I worked in less elite tech companies (e.g. Cisco) rather than top startups / FAANGs.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#95
post #3

My dad once told me of how at his work (in the 1980s or early 1990s, I think), they had a team of two Indians assigned to a project. One turned out to be of a much "higher" caste than the other, and refused to work with the other, making him utterly useless to the project. It's good that Apple, IBM and other tech companies are taking steps to prevent this sort of discrimination. It's a shame that Google seems be goin…

I remember reading that it’s a big problem at Cisco. In your dad’s example what ended up happening? From your description the guy who refused to work in the higher caste should be fired imo.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#96
post #75

> lawsuit about alleged casteism Why is it just not called racism? Introducing new terms kind of derails the problem. India (and Africa, China, Asia...) has a system where people with lighter skin are consider as "better". People with fair (whiter) skin are considered aristocracy, that never had to work outside on fields. And castes could not intermarry for couple of thousands of years, it is legitimate to consider t…

Just because you don't understand a term, doesn't mean you can just swap it for a term that you do understand. Go read up on what the caste system is, its history and how it effects life within India. It seems you'll learn something new.

I understand casteism, I worked with indian devs for two decades. I would suggest you to read what Gandi said about negros. I have a news for you; "brown" people can be racist too. White westerners do not have a monopoly on racism!

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#97
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some correlations between phenotypes and caste (and there is a lot of genetic stratification when you look at ancestry), but caste really cuts across race - there are lower caste groups in North India that look more "white" than upper caste groups in South India.

> there are lower caste groups in North India that look more "white" than upper caste groups in South India Definitions of race don’t require a skin-color gradient. Plenty of Asians are lighter skinned than white Mediterraneans.

I'm not just talking about skin color.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#98
post #69

Out of curiosity, for Indians working in America, how hard is it to hide your caste or pretend to be of another caste altogether? Is this something that comes up in conversation among Indians? Do names tend to correlate to you caste? And if so, do people change them as a way of hiding their family caste?

I'm not Indian American my origins are Caribbean but I have some Indian origins and can offer a few answers from my experience. > Is this something that comes up in conversation among Indians? It starts casually with "where are you from?" and the questions get more invasive. > Do names tend to correlate to you caste? In India, yes it does family name is derived from caste. I had some friends adopt English names to ge…

> It starts casually with "where are you from?" and the questions get more invasive.

Whenever I mention to a team member that I was interviewing somebody for a position on our team, they always ask: "are they in India?" I had never really wondered why before.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#99
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I'm strongly generalizing here, but the overall population statistics might mean that minorities hiring minorities is more of an outlier than white people hiring white people. In a predominantly white society, it is perfectly conceivable that you'll hire predominantly white people even if you are completely unbiased, purely because they are strongly over-represented in the population. White people hiring white people…

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045221

Anything not aligned with the breakdown here is just straight up racist hiring practices - 60% white, 20% hispanic / latino, 15% black, 5% asia (subcontinent & se asia).

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#100
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a large semiconductor company, the same could be said for many groups: Chinese hiring other Chinese, one group hiring native Americans mostly, others with Hispanic origin…

Quoted post unavailable.

It all comes down to the hiring pool. Compare the following two scenarios:

1. You're in a minority group (relative to the hiring pool), and your hiring decisions are skewed towards hiring other members of the same minority group (relative to the hiring pool)

2. You're in a majority group (relative to the hiring pool) and your hiring decisions are skewed towards hiring other members of the same majority group (relative to the hiring pool)

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