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Second-Order Thinking

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Re: Second-Order Thinking

#111

Post by thrown_22 »

js8 wrote: post #109
OJFord wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'order' has many meanings in mathematics, and I'm not sure of the best metaphor that is actually called an order there, but when people talk colloquially about 'second order effects' etc. IME they mean something like a vertex v2 (doing something) in response to a change to v1, where there exists a vertex vj and edges (v1, vj) & (vj, v2) - and implicitly no edge (v1, v2). Higher 'orders' similarly extending the chain.…

IMHO, the figure of speech "n-th order" generally comes from Taylor series approximation, where n-th term is indeed expressed using n-th derivative. Also, if the series converges, the higher order terms will become smaller, thus the practice of approximating the reality up to n-th order term. Also, it's often practical to ignore 2nd order and higher terms, because then you have a linear function - something really ea…

Higher order functions have nothing to do with derivatives however.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#112

Post by Ensorceled »

NalNezumi wrote: post #74
kqr wrote: post #60

This article, and some of the comments here, seem to confuse "second-order" with "long-term". Long-term just means doing the same analysis far out into the future: "If I spend less on maintaining software product $LEGACY, I will save money. If I continue to do this, I will save more and more money by each passing month." Second-order means discovering neighbouring causal links. "If I spend less on maintaining softwar…

I think people just interpret "future" very differently. For some "future" does include your second and third paragraph, since it is also a potential causality down the line. For others, it's only first paragraph example. Future for some is a branching tree, for others just a linked list.

This is a good analogy .. many of the comments in this thread that are confusing 2nd order thinking with long term thinking are clearly just thinking of iterating 1st order thinking along the time line.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#113

Post by sanderjd »

js8 wrote: post #109
OJFord wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'order' has many meanings in mathematics, and I'm not sure of the best metaphor that is actually called an order there, but when people talk colloquially about 'second order effects' etc. IME they mean something like a vertex v2 (doing something) in response to a change to v1, where there exists a vertex vj and edges (v1, vj) & (vj, v2) - and implicitly no edge (v1, v2). Higher 'orders' similarly extending the chain.…

IMHO, the figure of speech "n-th order" generally comes from Taylor series approximation, where n-th term is indeed expressed using n-th derivative. Also, if the series converges, the higher order terms will become smaller, thus the practice of approximating the reality up to n-th order term. Also, it's often practical to ignore 2nd order and higher terms, because then you have a linear function - something really ea…

I really doubt this is where "nth order" comes from colloquially.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#114

Post by zerop »

matwood wrote: post #103
zerop wrote: post #68

IMO the problem is the perception that fast thinkers or fast decision makers are smart folks. I know a lots of people who would not give instant answers to problems, they will be always "I will come back to this, let me think through". They give much better solve, but take time. But we are surrounded by people who want fast solutions.

You have to define 'better'. If an entity can process their OODA loop faster than competing entities, they will have an advantage. I agree with you that people who are quick to talk in meetings can sometimes incorrectly come across as smarter, but I caution you to completely discount speed.

Yes, no Bias is good either.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#115

Post by abdulhaq »

Shugarl wrote: post #44

Is it me, or does everyone here have a different definition of what n-th order thinking means ?

A) second order thinking sounds clever so we all agree it's good,though we're unsure what it is B) my way of thinking is advanced and clever Ergo C) second order thinking is the way I think

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#116

Post by 12ian34 »

Ensorceled wrote: post #105
12ian34 wrote: post #12

This is just "long term thinking". I would say the article isn't worth reading. But at least, it's a good reminder to focus on thinking about the long term consequences of actions/decisions.

In my day job, I encounter a lot of suggested solutions from my team and colleagues that will not succeed for various reasons. Just because we will not discover those failures until after the implementation in a couple of weeks does not make my better solutions "long term thinking". Long term thinking is "will this solution that will work perfectly fine right now, still be the right solution in 2023"

Whether or not "long term thinking" is what you say it is, I don't think the article does a good job of providing any real value. The author is getting confused between "long term" and "second order" thinking. The concept of "second order thinking" seems to just mean "thinking about the indirect impact of one's actions" which seems hardly book-worthy to me.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#117

Post by RandomLensman »

Misses that people might not be incentivized to do any higher order thinking. It isn't always in someone's interest to consider higher order and more complex outcomes. "Simple" often tends to be quite popular.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#118

Post by js8 »

sanderjd wrote: post #113
js8 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, the figure of speech "n-th order" generally comes from Taylor series approximation, where n-th term is indeed expressed using n-th derivative. Also, if the series converges, the higher order terms will become smaller, thus the practice of approximating the reality up to n-th order term. Also, it's often practical to ignore 2nd order and higher terms, because then you have a linear function - something really ea…

I really doubt this is where "nth order" comes from colloquially.

There are many examples in physics, for example: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/310875/second-or...

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#120

Post by pjmorris »

noduerme wrote: post #79
brightball wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humility essentially the core virtue of Christianity, as well as active recognition of pride as a sin. If you dig deep, you’ll find that pride is the root of virtually every evil. I’m only pointing this out because of the perception of Christianity that you mention in your post. There’s a very big difference between what Reddit claims is Christian behavior and what the Bible actually claims. https://www.readnotmisled…

Quoted post unavailable.

I read the New Testament 2-4 times per year (and the Old Testament every year or so) and I'm convinced I don't understand him. But I'm trying.
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