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Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

spiegel.de

261–270 of 304 posts

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is also "gas-backed" in way. A stable energy grid is not something one can hand wave together.

Nuclear is reliable to a fault . It is rock solid. But it doesn't "go up" very fast - that is where you need gas support. Which is quite different from solar and wind, where you can't predict the ups and downs

Have you looked at France's grid recently?

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Why did holes into the earth to store toxic waste when you have literally infinite energy right above your head (sun and wind)?

Infinite AND intermittent. Renewables don't work for base load yet.

There is currently almost no financial incentive to build storage, because we haven't built enough generation capacity yet. Germany for example gets 40-50% of its electricity from renewables on average and only 1-2% are lost because we don't know what to do with it during times of overproduction. So any storage system would mostly be filled with fossil power right now.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#263
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t renewables already more cost effective than nuclear? See for example here: https://energycentral.com/c/ec/comparing-costs-renewable-and... Storage issues might be solved before new nuclear plants go online at the current pace of progress. Perhaps a few years of gas until the renewable infrastructure is set up will suffice? At least the issue does not seem to be as clear cut as most people claim they are.

> Storage issues might be solved The problem as I see it as that any '100% renewable' solution which could be ramped up relatively quickly would necessitate technology that doesn't exist yet. Of course there will be some progress in tech, but we have no way to predict exactly what it will be. It will also be extremely expensive simply due to the massive scale required, and there are numerous powerful & well funded gr…

All the necessary technology exists. PV and and wind to generate power, some batteries to buffer short fluctuations and hydrogen for term storage. It's all a matter of spending the money to build the infrastructure.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#264
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t renewables already more cost effective than nuclear? See for example here: https://energycentral.com/c/ec/comparing-costs-renewable-and... Storage issues might be solved before new nuclear plants go online at the current pace of progress. Perhaps a few years of gas until the renewable infrastructure is set up will suffice? At least the issue does not seem to be as clear cut as most people claim they are.

If you essentially stop any technology progress for 40 years in one technology, other technologies might catuch up. But there is a MASSIVE amount of potential for nuclear to be cheaper and better. People in 2000~ were more then happy to predict massive improvement in cost for renewables if money was invested but absolutely denied that the same could happen with nuclear. Had the same amount been invested in nuclear, p…

We don't have another twenty years to wait for nuclear costs to maybe come down and then another twenty years to build enough cheap nuclear to become carbon neutral. Renewables are cheap today and can be built much faster than nuclear.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#265

Meanwhile in France. Because the temperatures are so high and the continuing drought, the nuclear power plants have to decrease their power output. The cooling water comes from the rivers and the plants have limits how hot the water is allowed to get downstream. Everything would slowly cook in the rivers … Even with temporal exceptions of this environmental rules France became a NET IMPORTER of power. France is like…

Yeah the main problem is France basically did amazing with nuclear for like 30 years and then in the last 20 they basically flat-lined in total production. And the dropped all their advanced nuclear and is still planning expensive PWR style reactors until 2050. France had developed a Sodium cooled reactor but because of anti-nuclear sentiment they only built one and killed it. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super…

> However unfortunately they didn't do as good a job with advancing the technology.

Mostly due to anti-France lobbying from other nations (Germany and the US mostly).

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great but I want the same deal for the coal and gas companies that produce electricity, make them responsible for every ton of CO2 they emitted and make them responsible for removing it from the atmosphere.

Pitting nuclear against coal is fighting a straw man. The alternative is renewables. With a tiny fraction of the negative side-effects either nuclear or of fossil energy brings.

If the question is what energy production method should be used it is certainly not. The Green Party in particular did probably more harm to the environment and damaged or geo-strategic position by making us dependent on foreign Gas and by extending the economic viability of open-pit mines. We were leaders in nuclear technology and research and could be energy independent by now.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can dream every solution you'd care to dream, but right now gas-backed solar is how it's done in europe.

Nuclear is also "gas-backed" in way. A stable energy grid is not something one can hand wave together.

In Germany it was backed by water power that could take most of the load at night so that the nuclear power plants could run continuously.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#269
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gladly. But as I said, possible shortages are gas for heating, industrial production, not electricity.

15% of German electricity production is from natural gas. https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterpris...

Yes, and? Currently less than 35% of the German gas comes from Russia. Leaves way enough for electricity. The question is only, who gets cuts, if there isn't enough gas in the winter. The law says, industry first, heating second. The only debate is, how much cuts to private heating are a good trade off for supporting the industry. And as the Germany are very protective of the industry, there will probably a compromise of somewhat reduced heating (just wear a sweater instead of a t-shirt) and keeping all industry alive. Also of course, all companies are scrambling to secure their energy needs. This is how you deal with looming crisises: you identify them, you act to prepare. And suddenly the worst is no longer a thread. German gas storage is already filled up to 75%.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#270
post #77

It is interesting to note how everyone talks about the dependency on gas in Germany, while nobody mentions France. If we look at the two graphs: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/En... https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/abm6r4/germanys_en... We can see that both Germany and France use about the same percentage of gas in their energy mix. Making this discussion a reason to revive nuclear…

France has less dependence on russian gas , it doesn't have germany's large industry that is also dependent on russian gas, their nuclear will be there in the future, they have 4 LNG terminals and they are quite sunnier. I believe france's nuclear is currently offline that's why the higher gas usage.

It is a large assumption that "their nuclear will be there in the future" with so many plants being down for unplanned maintenance as cracks were detected in important parts. It is not clear when and if the full capacity of their current plants will be available again and currently France is still struggling with building the Flammaville reactor. Being late many years and way over budget, it doesn't look like France will be able to even maintain their current nuclear capacity going forward. And they are late in a good renewable strategy.
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