Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#131

Post by number6 » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

orbifold wrote: post #115

KingOfCoders wrote: post #93

As a German I don't care. I just want two things: 1. The energy company pays market rate insurance for their nuclear plants. Not "we take the profit, taxpayers pay for the disaster" 2. The energy company sets up a trust to pay for the safe storage of nuclear waste and cleaning up the plant should they go bust (again "we take ...")

Great but I want the same deal for the coal and gas companies that produce electricity, make them responsible for every ton of CO2 they emitted and make them responsible for removing it from the atmosphere.

This is in place via EU-ETS: https://ec.europa.eu/clima/eu-action/eu-emissions-trading-sy...

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#132

Post by Kon5ole » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 6:51 PM UTC

elefanten wrote: post #126

Kon5ole wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, see for example the Asse II mine, where taxpayers must pay for relocating nuclear waste since the operator no longer exists as a going concern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asse_II_mine As far as I have been able to determine this is in fact how nuclear power is run in most of the world. Nuclear power is heavily subsidized by borrowing money from future generations. We are currently entering that future, as for…

But that dynamic is true of other energy sources too. We’ve never priced fossil fuels correctly vs their externalities. So doing that only for nuclear would be an even greater distortion.

Absolutely true, we are probably in the middle of the handful of generations of humans that have spent all of earths oil reserves. Did we pay a fair price for it?

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#133

Post by silon42 » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

seydor wrote: post #80

cinntaile wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most households burn gas at home for heating. Sure if there is no gas, you can use an electrical heater but that won't be cheap.

problem is germany uses russian gas for electricity

back to coal gas it is?

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#134

Post by tehbeard » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

Brigand wrote: post #32

cgb223 wrote: post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

Aren’t renewables already more cost effective than nuclear? See for example here: https://energycentral.com/c/ec/comparing-costs-renewable-and... Storage issues might be solved before new nuclear plants go online at the current pace of progress. Perhaps a few years of gas until the renewable infrastructure is set up will suffice? At least the issue does not seem to be as clear cut as most people claim they are.

The only thing more "just around the corner" than better battery storage is fusion..

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#135

Post by google234123 » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #130

rullelito wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this already how it works?

No, nuclear gets free state insurance and free waste disposal (as well as a bunch of other subsidies). This is why everyone laughs when country claim their nuclear programs are "peaceful power generation projects".

It would be nice if environmental activists didn’t block us from burying the waste…

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#136

Post by Gwypaas » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 6:56 PM UTC

T-A wrote: post #95

Gwypaas wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. EU is founded on integrating the belligerents of WW2 close enough that it would be unthinkable to happen again. The same method, which at least has worked previously, was tri…

> Not too different though, looking at how the Baltic states have developed when given the choice and chance. The Baltic states were gobbled up by the Soviet Union during WWII, and accrued significant Russian minorities during the Cold War, but they are culturally and ethnically distinct from Russia, with their own languages and histories going back centuries (just check out the Grand Duchy of Lithuania).

Completely agree. Been to all three, very different culturally, both within and compared to Russia, but still with a noticeable Soviet heritage.

Especially Tallinn is becoming a hugely interesting city with the mix of centuries old history, some soviet heritage, new and tech.

They still make an interesting thought experiment since they actually were wholly integrated into the Soviet Union. The other examples near EU are Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova which have ended up on completely different paths.

In comparison to the former East Block nations which more were in the Soviet sphere which was a similar but different existence.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#137

Post by tpmx » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 7:01 PM UTC

User23 wrote: post #122

tpmx wrote: post #15

And still the current plan is for Germany to shut down its few remaining nuclear reactors by the end of the year, while the company/companies maintaining them are saying they can keep them running? Please stop the shutdown, ffs, are you insane? Let's try to stop Germany from harming itself further via international pressure. Blame and shame. Call them idiots to their faces. Point fingers. They need to shocked. The ge…

> Let's try to stop Germany from harming itself further via international pressure. Blame and shame. Call them idiots to their faces. Point fingers. They need to shocked. Trump literally did exactly this. Needless to say they doubled down. Classic example of an inability to separate the value of a message from the messenger. The Greens are barking mad though, and not just about nuclear. Parliamentary democracy being…

No post body was provided.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#138

Post by BonoboIO » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 7:01 PM UTC

Meanwhile in France.

Because the temperatures are so high and the continuing drought, the nuclear power plants have to decrease their power output.

The cooling water comes from the rivers and the plants have limits how hot the water is allowed to get downstream. Everything would slowly cook in the rivers …

Even with temporal exceptions of this environmental rules France became a NET IMPORTER of power.

France is like 80% nuclear power electricity.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/france-risks-winter-blackou...

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#139

Post by LatteLazy » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 7:02 PM UTC

627467 wrote: post #86

Can't help but observe on how incapable are human societies to make long term critical rational decisions. It never really made sense to say "we are going to phase out nuclear entirely" instead of "we'll focus on how to build safer, cheaper and more efficient nuclear". The decision to go off nuclear was capricious and it seems that the speed with which sentiment is changing only proves this.

Nuclear requires exactly the sort of long term rational decision making you decry the lack of. That's the nice thing about other energy sources, they don't require 1000 years of self discipline and self denial...

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#140

Post by dang » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 7:03 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #15

And still the current plan is for Germany to shut down its few remaining nuclear reactors by the end of the year, while the company/companies maintaining them are saying they can keep them running? Please stop the shutdown, ffs, are you insane? Let's try to stop Germany from harming itself further via international pressure. Blame and shame. Call them idiots to their faces. Point fingers. They need to shocked. The ge…

Please don't call names or fulminate or do online shaming or nationalistic flamewar on HN—regardless of how wrong other people or you feel they are.

You may not owe opposing energy activists better, but you owe this community better if you're participating in it.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.