Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#71

Post by ALittleLight » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:30 PM UTC

osigurdson wrote: post #41

ALittleLight wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps irrational? It's certainly irrational. Nuclear is among the absolute safest methods of energy production. Looking at Wikipedia one person died and sixteen were injured at Fukushima. That risk should dictate energy policy? "Irrational" is being kind.

When you think “power plant disaster”, what power plant instantly comes to mind? It’s a powerful “brand” that is quite difficult to displace in people’s minds. That is the problem to solve.

I think of hydroelectric dams which can destroy whole towns. There is a single hydroelectric disaster that has killed many more people than all nuclear incidents put together.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#72

Post by vimy » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:31 PM UTC

FourthProtocol wrote: post #22

ren_engineer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because their anti-nuclear environmental groups were actually being funded by Russia behind the scenes. And there are still fools who think that economic integration somehow prevents wars, which was shown to be false after WWI. These people said if Europe just paid a bunch of money for Russian energy they'd obviously never attack them. See what's happening with China and the US as more proof that handing over your ec…

Indeed so. I've been following nuclear in Germany ever since those railroad protests when they tried to transport nuclear waste from somewhere to somewhere else which I thought was crazy (the protests). The part I felt had merit is that none of Europe's lofty solutions to safely storing/disposing of the waste output ever came to anything. I believe until this day that industry is still trying to work out how to dig 3…

After more than 50 years of nuclear power plants in use we can say that there is no nuclear waste problem. The ‘waste’ has been stored above ground for decades and nothing has happened. It’s clearly safe. We should just keep doing what we’re doing. No need to dig expensive holes.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#73

Post by bryanlarsen » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:34 PM UTC

slfnflctd wrote: post #56

Brigand wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t renewables already more cost effective than nuclear? See for example here: https://energycentral.com/c/ec/comparing-costs-renewable-and... Storage issues might be solved before new nuclear plants go online at the current pace of progress. Perhaps a few years of gas until the renewable infrastructure is set up will suffice? At least the issue does not seem to be as clear cut as most people claim they are.

> Storage issues might be solved The problem as I see it as that any '100% renewable' solution which could be ramped up relatively quickly would necessitate technology that doesn't exist yet. Of course there will be some progress in tech, but we have no way to predict exactly what it will be. It will also be extremely expensive simply due to the massive scale required, and there are numerous powerful & well funded gr…

> that doesn't exist yet.

Batteries exist, and estimates of how many would be needed are around 50TWh. We have over 500GWh of annual battery production, and the doubling period for that capacity is under 18 months.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#74

Post by x86x87 » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:35 PM UTC

DrBazza wrote: post #21

cycomanic wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well more of Europe's Uranium comes from Russia than Germanys gas. It is not like Germany has vast Uranium reserves. When the Green/Social Democrat coalition under Schröder decided on stopping nuclear the idea was to largely exchange that for renewables (and the German wind and solar industry was leading in the world at the time). This would have been a much bigger step toward energy independence. The coal, nuclear a…

Is that right? Almost 50% of the world’s uranium comes from Khazakstan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_uranium_p...

Does production == having the resource?

Asking because I think it's possible that many places don't bother to mine it due to a combination of regulations and cost.

LE: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_uranium...

So, Australia is where most of the uranium is :| Also, Russia does seem to have significant reserves that could be mined.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#75

Post by wongarsu » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

DrBazza wrote: post #31

schroeding wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not like Germany has vast Uranium reserves. ... actually we do, around 130.000 tonnes of it[1,2]. Of course not as vast as some other countries, but still substantial. We just don't mine and refine it anymore. I don't know if this should be an actual argument pro nuclear, but we have it. The GDR / DDR even supplied the Soviet Union with Uranium via SDAG Wismut[2]. [1] https://infcis.iaea.org/UDEPO/Statistics/…

Best link I could find mentions Russia as well as all the other countries. See the uranium mining section. https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-pr...

East Germany was the fourth largest producer of uranium ore. After the reunification we just closed those mines, just as we shut down East German nuclear plants.

If there was a compelling reason we could presumably start mining and refining those deposits again.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#76

Post by nautilius » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

blibble wrote: post #70

Gwypaas wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. EU is founded on integrating the belligerents of WW2 close enough that it would be unthinkable to happen again. The same method, which at least has worked previously, was tri…

> Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. > The same method, which at least has worked previously it was a common theory prior to WW1 breaking out, then WW1 broke out and falsified it and now Russia has falsified this theory again (the threat of the Soviet Union plus nuclear deterrence prevented war in Europe, not the EU)

You may want to look into how many conflicts between how many parties there were in Europe prior to WWI, and since.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#77

Post by seydor » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:37 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #35

It is interesting to note how everyone talks about the dependency on gas in Germany, while nobody mentions France. If we look at the two graphs: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/En... https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/abm6r4/germanys_en... We can see that both Germany and France use about the same percentage of gas in their energy mix. Making this discussion a reason to revive nuclear…

France has less dependence on russian gas , it doesn't have germany's large industry that is also dependent on russian gas, their nuclear will be there in the future, they have 4 LNG terminals and they are quite sunnier. I believe france's nuclear is currently offline that's why the higher gas usage.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#78

Post by ed_balls » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:37 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #62

ed_balls wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of geopolitics, the rest is just hypocrisy. Germany and France wanted to build the Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok with help from Russia. That new Europe would became a 3rd power (after US and China) It's a good match. They can get cheap resources from Russia, manufacturing can be move from China to Siberia where pollution is not a big problem. Russia would balance China, so no need for massive military spe…

This is the Leviathan vs. Behemoth theory of geopolitics. It has explanatory value, though it’s distinctly colonial in its construction. In this game, Europe is the swing vote. The Leviathan, a maritime power of Europe, the U.K., North America and Australia + Japan currently holds. Xi tried forging a Behemoth, a land power, in which Eurasia dominates Africa and the Americas. Behemoths, the thinking goes, will be army…

> the deck looks stacked against a Beijing-Moscow-Berlin

As of this movement, yes, but in the future USA won't be able to keep the hegemony. Right now there is a leverage on energy (oil and gas from middle east) and the cheapest from of transportation (maritime). USA can block both via Ormuz and Malacca. In 20-30 years China and Europe will be energy and resource independent. If land transportation* will be more cost effective than ships, USA hegemony is gone.

*hyperloop/magnetic rail/other

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#79

Post by justin66 » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

blibble wrote: post #70

Gwypaas wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. EU is founded on integrating the belligerents of WW2 close enough that it would be unthinkable to happen again. The same method, which at least has worked previously, was tri…

> Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. > The same method, which at least has worked previously it was a common theory prior to WW1 breaking out, then WW1 broke out and falsified it and now Russia has falsified this theory again (the threat of the Soviet Union plus nuclear deterrence prevented war in Europe, not the EU)

Gerhard Schröder certainly demonstrated that there is good money to be made in testing this theory.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#80

Post by seydor » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:39 PM UTC

cinntaile wrote: post #49

WalterBright wrote: post #10

> The results are astounding all around Faced with burning wood to keep warm in winter, the results are entirely predictable.

Most households burn gas at home for heating. Sure if there is no gas, you can use an electrical heater but that won't be cheap.

problem is germany uses russian gas for electricity