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Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

spiegel.de

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Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#61
post #18
post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

Left wing in Europe often has lots of Soviet sympathisers among their ranks. Basically USA=Bad, Russia=Good still lives on somehow. I don't know anything about the situation in Germany in particular though, but I wouldn't be surprised if they saw integration with Russia as a good thing rather than a bad thing.

[deleted]

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#62
post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

Because of geopolitics, the rest is just hypocrisy. Germany and France wanted to build the Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok with help from Russia. That new Europe would became a 3rd power (after US and China) It's a good match. They can get cheap resources from Russia, manufacturing can be move from China to Siberia where pollution is not a big problem. Russia would balance China, so no need for massive military spe…

This is the Leviathan vs. Behemoth theory of geopolitics. It has explanatory value, though it’s distinctly colonial in its construction.

In this game, Europe is the swing vote. The Leviathan, a maritime power of Europe, the U.K., North America and Australia + Japan currently holds. Xi tried forging a Behemoth, a land power, in which Eurasia dominates Africa and the Americas. Behemoths, the thinking goes, will be army-driven and centralised; Leviathans, naval and decentralised.

The problem with the Behemoth is Eurasia is too culturally diverse to put under the sort of centralisation land powers (e.g. Rome, the Ottomans, Napoleon’s France + the USSR) require to stay stable. Maritime powers, historically trading powers (e.g. Carthage, the Dutch, the British and the United States), accommodate more diversity. Maritime alliances are inherently reliant on networks of local governments versus a central power dictating policy to the periphery. Put simply, the deck looks stacked against a Beijing-Moscow-Berlin alliance barring major right-wing shifts in Western Europe and social liberalisation in much of Asia.

> Germany and France wanted to build the Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok with help from Russia

The Arctic Sea is becoming navigable. Push for an independent Siberia, et cetera that exports via Arctic ports, not pipelines, and they get what they’re looking for without requiring a global reälignment. (Not advocating this. Just saying it’s a better play under that geopolitical model than trashing Ukraine.)

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#63
post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

Well more of Europe's Uranium comes from Russia than Germanys gas. It is not like Germany has vast Uranium reserves. When the Green/Social Democrat coalition under Schröder decided on stopping nuclear the idea was to largely exchange that for renewables (and the German wind and solar industry was leading in the world at the time). This would have been a much bigger step toward energy independence. The coal, nuclear a…

That, and gas is used for heating not for electricity generatuon. Which part of Germany's problem with high CO2 emmisions.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#64
post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

The US imported gas from Saudi Arabia and other states that

They were in conflicts with the US a lot. I mean 911 was pretty much all Saudi Arabian terrorists.

With other nations like Iraq, Iran as well though depending on who ran it and who the president was.

I believe the US is producing enough oil domestically.

Yet I know the US was importing oil from Russia prior to the Ukraine war.

States like the US or EU do it because it makes economic sense.

The scope of oil is far too narrow.

EU and the US rely on many commodoties to mkae the country, industry and ecnomomy work. A loss in some of the more serious ones can have a devastationg imapct.

Thus, the question should be extended to: Why do states and unions make themself dependent upon commodities they must import. Should each state / unnion be self sufficent in all critical supplies?

That is of course impossible, or nearly so. Each state/union will remain voulnralbe ans exposed if supply lines get cut off for any reaosn.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#65
post #60
post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

> Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. EU is founded on integrating the belligerents of WW2 close enough that it would be unthinkable to happen again. The same method, which at least has worked previously, was tri…

While that strategy in general makes sense, energy is much more critical for the buyer than the seller and that ultimately gives Russia leverage over Germany instead. You want codependency that harms both parties as equally as possible

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#66
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not German, but I suspect memories of Fukushima and Chernobyl could be weighing on the minds of some. Perhaps this is an irrational concern but people are not necessarily rational - particularly when randomly polled on topics they know little about.

What I don’t understand is how those two incidents are even relevant. Chernobyl happened because of a faulty design + mismanagement and Fukushima was located on a region prone to earthquakes/tsunami’s caused by earthquakes. The factors do not really apply to Germany. And even if it did, the deaths caused by those accidents were quite low. Meanwhile coal pollution is killing people by the thousands but this is somehow…

> Meanwhile coal pollution is killing people by the thousands but this is somehow ok?

There is a tram going on a track, killing 10 children each week. You can switch it yo another track where it has a small chance of killing a thousand and you will be blamed for that.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#67

It is interesting to note how everyone talks about the dependency on gas in Germany, while nobody mentions France. If we look at the two graphs: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/En... https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/abm6r4/germanys_en... We can see that both Germany and France use about the same percentage of gas in their energy mix. Making this discussion a reason to revive nuclear…

Considering that France has been increasing the amount of nuclear in their mix, I think it's worth discussing nuclear for Germany and renewable for France.

France seems to be unintentionally decreasing nuclear in their mix because of unreliability.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/paris-faces-a...

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#68

It is interesting to note how everyone talks about the dependency on gas in Germany, while nobody mentions France. If we look at the two graphs: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/En... https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/abm6r4/germanys_en... We can see that both Germany and France use about the same percentage of gas in their energy mix. Making this discussion a reason to revive nuclear…

Considering that France has been increasing the amount of nuclear in their mix, I think it's worth discussing nuclear for Germany and renewable for France.

But they haven't, did you look at the graph (here is another one for electricity only https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:France_Electricity_prod...)? The portion of nuclear has remained constant since the late 90s. Also France at the moment has turned off between 40 and 100% (I read about 40%, but saw 100% on TV some weeks ago) of their nuclear power plants, due to heat and maintance. Guess who is picking up the shortfall at the moment, German renewables and coal.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#69
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not German, but I suspect memories of Fukushima and Chernobyl could be weighing on the minds of some. Perhaps this is an irrational concern but people are not necessarily rational - particularly when randomly polled on topics they know little about.

What I don’t understand is how those two incidents are even relevant. Chernobyl happened because of a faulty design + mismanagement and Fukushima was located on a region prone to earthquakes/tsunami’s caused by earthquakes. The factors do not really apply to Germany. And even if it did, the deaths caused by those accidents were quite low. Meanwhile coal pollution is killing people by the thousands but this is somehow…

> Meanwhile coal pollution is killing people by the thousands but this is somehow ok?

Pitting nuclear against coal is fighting a straw man. The alternative is renewables. With a tiny fraction of the negative side-effects either nuclear or of fossil energy brings.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#70
post #60
post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

> Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. EU is founded on integrating the belligerents of WW2 close enough that it would be unthinkable to happen again. The same method, which at least has worked previously, was tri…

> Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence.

> The same method, which at least has worked previously

it was a common theory prior to WW1 breaking out, then WW1 broke out and falsified it

and now Russia has falsified this theory again

(the threat of the Soviet Union plus nuclear deterrence prevented war in Europe, not the EU)

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