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Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

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Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#371
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like that, the logical thing is to support water commiditization so that nestle doesn't get it for free.

Water commodification is exactly what Nestlé is doing What we need is regulation to stop them from doing that, not a different company selling and capturing the water. That's just more of the same thing which solves nothing.

Nestle gets all the water they want for a $200 permit. That's not water commodification. They sell bottled water, but that's also not commodification of water. Almost 0% of US water consumption comes from a plastic bottle, and you can't commodify a market with ~0% market share.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#372
post #330
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a roof over ones head is a basic human right. Prove it.

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... Article 25

Among those the UN counts as members are the Taliban (by way of Afghanistan) and Putin’s Russia, which makes it arguable that the UN as a body is in a deciding position on fundamental human rights, let alone a coherent position.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how making housing even more costly houses the extra 50 people?

When people speculate on land it doesn't get used as much as it should. By having people pay for the value of the land, that either forces them to make use of it, increasing housing supply, or get rid of it, which then the next person who buys will make use of it. Even a partial land value tax like we see in certain PA cities[0] yields real results and after implementing the tax vacant land went away and current home…

This sounds like the quick way to create a nation of renters. Otherwise, people would be priced out of their homes in short order by the ever increasing LVT. Which of course, isn't a bug, but the feature of Georgism (a family of 4 living making a home there probably won't permanently be the most efficient form of land use on that plot)

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#374
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would start by making property taxes substantially higher for non-owner-occupied property. If you are rent-seeking rather than residing on the property you should pay way more, maybe 4x or higher, in taxes. Housing prices would crash and that would be the point; but everyone who owns property would be against it because they don't want to see their assets drop in value. The counter-argument people make is "that wou…

Wouldn't that mostly just increase the rents? I.e. the landlords can offload the extra tax to their clients (renters).

That would be true if rent was a percentage on top of cost. But it is not, it is whatever maximum renters are willing to pay.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#375
It's early, so I'm mostly going to stream-of-conciousness this answer, because real estate, and real estate policy is extremely complicated.

Tldr, the solution to housing supply issues to to build more housing. Full stop. If there was ample housing, a decision to buy vs rent would be up to the individual, and all of the talk of how to manipulate policy to allow housing to benefit group A/B/C over group D/E/F would go away.

From what I see, your concern here is about people not being able to afford to "buy a house for themselves because corporations are buying them all", and not on the "corporations that rent houses make people homeless" angle.

First, just in case, I'll address the second. Organizations that buy and rent property do not make people (as a population) homeless. Full stop. Unless they are keeping houses vacant for some other reason, if there are 100 houses, an organization buys them and rents them out, 100 families/groups still have homes. The number of housed people is the same.

In fact, you can argue that rented homes actually decrease overall homeless due to people being more willing to have roommates when they rent a property. Getting a 1 year lease with someone you know through a friend of a friend? Totally reasonable. Going halvies on a house with someone you know through a friend of a friend? Absolutely terrible financial decision. I highly suspect that people who own their home are overall less likely to actively go out searching for a roommate (I wish I had a reference on this)

Overall point, if the goal is to reduce homelessness, you need to build more houses. An organization/corporation renting units does not decrease the available supply. Arguments like "Well, organizations do slow remodels that take units off the market. If an owner owned it, they would live in it during a remodel!". The number of houses that affects is so small it's hardly even mentionable.

To the first point, many people are arguing that the way to do this is to make it so that you can't "profit" on owning a home. In the US, owning property is seen as the path to financial freedom. Enacting policy to actively prevent that will drive many people away from even wanting to buy. If there is artificially limited finanicial upside in buying a property, the math has changed and a lot of people may choose to rent instead. But the policy changes have made it way more difficult to find anywhere to rent. You're stuck buying something, being fully responsible for all of the components of it, and then hoping you can sell it when you need to. Realtors love this one trick to force people to buy/sell homes.

Finally, don't forget that the US already subsidizes home ownership to a large degress in the US. Federally backed mortgages that keep rates on 30-yr fixes terms well below a market rate, FHA programs so people can buy a home with 3.5% down (ie, leveraging thsmselves ~30x), property taxes and interest being tax deductible, 250-500k in tax-free capital gains when you sell a primary residence, and being able to use any improvements to increase your tax basis. None of these benefits exist for renters.

As discussed earlier, the main issue with housing is supply. When you have limited supply, and programs that are designed to increase demand, prices are going to go up. Whether there are startups/corporations involved or not.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#376
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

housing is complicated My bullshit detector went off right here. Housing isn't complicated. It's only complicated by investment money being involved. Having a roof over ones head is a basic human right. In Australia, the market is so hot, very few young people can afford anything, if you're living in a nice place, you can easily be kicked out after your rent doubles. I know of good, professional people who migrated t…

But you need someone else to provide your ’basic human right’ Is housing expensive in popular cities or everywhere? What is preventing people (you?) from building cheap houses on cheap land? Is it regulation? We are headed for a massive population crash almost everywhere, the housing market will completely collapse in the next 10 years and will not recover. You can look at Japan and Italy as a head up, they are start…

Populations are expected to keep rising until 2100 at least. India and China may see a big drop but everywhere else will continue to grow albeit slower than before

https://ourworldindata.org/future-population-growth#global-p...

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#378

No, because governments' ability to procure it for the needy is a very separable problem. But let me play Devil's Advocate: agriculture, the foundation of the food supply, is one of the most commoditized markets that exist. Does this bother you too? Why not? If it's because food is generally a smaller part of income, highly responsive to market pressure to keep prices low in addition to some stabilizing subsidies fro…

> why can't real estate work the same way? So I'll tackle this... Food is highly responsive to market pressure because it is nearly entirely fungible. I'll throw this here for the sake of making sure we're on the same page when I say that --- Fungible: able to replace or be replaced by another identical item; mutually interchangeable. --- So food markets are sensitive to pressure because there is hardly ever anything…

There are thousands of homes/apartments around where I live that are about equally attractive for me to live at. Most sold by different sellers. Housing is fungible.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#379
post #172

Like another comment here mentioned, housing is complicated. People don't want to live in a random house in the middle of nowhere ('roof over your head'). Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting to a roof over their head that they don't like. People want to live where they want to live (near family, jobs, culture etc) Take NYC for instance. Politicians try to address the NYC housing crisis from…

It looks like you can't see the real issue: too many people want to live in NYC. If you make it cheaper to own, build or rent in NYC even more people will come and the there will not be enough housing. Perhaps people should be encouraged to live somewhere else/in more places? Living in NYC is not a human right either.

The problem is that when the cost of living goes up, it tends to force out poorer residents that have been there for many years.

Encouraging people to just live somewhere else because they can no longer afford the home they've owned for decades undermines the entire premise of home ownership because it means that you may own the deed today, but you only control the property as long as the financial system underpinning your local real estate market operates within a range that you can afford.

And in 40 years when you're retired and on a fixed income that assumed you'd be paying a property tax rate that has now doubled and you can no longer afford the property, then it becomes your turn to GTFO and make room for the people who can afford it.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing how many people in government globally refuse to understand this. The UK government has just been talking about inheritable 50 year mortgages. No one wants to build more housing. I think it might help people understand to put it in terms like this: there are 100 housing units out there and 150 people. How do we solve the problem?

Make small cities and towns desirable again and put those 50 people somewhere else.

I agree. What are your ideas on fixing that?

I watched my grandparent’s hometown (Newton, IA) become less and less desirable over the decades after Maytag moved the factory to China. They diversified a bit by adding a race track, but it’s a shell of its former self. Cheaper offshoring (not from one party or another, but encouraged by politicians on both sides) really wrecked the economy of small US cities and towns.

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