Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#131

Post by sgc » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 1:51 PM UTC

mamonster wrote: post #62

delusional wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raising taxes doesn't "abolish" anything, it may make it less lucrative, but that's a far cry from "abolishment"

Depends to what level they are raised, of course. Making something prohibitively expensive and then saying "hey look you can still technically do it, it's just not worth your time and you have to really execute everything perfectly" is not super different from just saying you can't do it.

Right, but unless somebody states that is the type of tax they are looking for, it is not appropriate to presume that is what they mean without further information. It seems pretty clear that a primary residence, one secondary home that is used for family vacations at least some of the time, one building/ piece of land that is actively used for a personally operated business, and all other real estate are each distinct categories that should receive different incentives and disincentives from the state - unless you are against governance, but that is another conversation altogether.

I personally think that primary residences should have a 100% homestead exemption, because I don't think you should have to rent your home from the State. And to make up that percentage of income, other real estate should be taxed a little higher. At the same time, there should be intelligent programs in place to make it easier to reach the point where you can own that first home. This last point would undoubtedly work best if there were either financial and/or statutory restrictions on ownership of residential real estate for investment purposes. So, in principle, it makes perfect sense as part of a larger goal of promoting home ownership. The conversation of how to best do this is of course more complex and there are many factors that need to be balanced - more than anything because high taxes raise rents, which would point towards regulation as an important part of the best way of dealing with this.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#132

Post by thepasswordis » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 1:51 PM UTC

>a basic human right

You do not have a basic human right to the labor of the people who build and maintain these houses.

This is where this entire discussion collapses for me. Yes, I agree there needs to be more access to housing. And it’s frustrating to me that our government is too inept to simply provide it. For instance: we have committed to about 45 Billion to Ukraine.

At a cost of $100k/unit (achievable at scale), that’s around 450,000 single family homes.

The “inflation reduction” act, at about $600 Billion, represents about 6 MILLION single family homes.

The “build back better” money, which appears to do approximately no building back of anything whatsoever would build about 40 MILLION single family homes all in.

This entire discussion is absurd to me. You’ve got politicians burning money, some people talking about housing as if they have a “right” to a house (that is: a right to force people like me to build them a house at gunpoint), and still surging homelessness.

Nobody seems to actually want to have a real discussion about any of this. When our elections come up, the “housing is a human right” group votes against any policies which would lead to people actually owning a home, and for the politicians looting the treasury. It’s all just absurd.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#133

Post by solatic » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 1:51 PM UTC

It's unstoppable. The big difference between today and hundreds of years ago is that it's not enough to have a roof over one's head. Few people farm the land to make a living. One must live close to employment, family, friends, community; ideally in a neighborhood with low crime, close to commerce, and with access to quality affordable education for one's children. Not every neighborhood or property is equally appealing (or revolting) to all, but neither is the appeal of a specific neighborhood or property broadly debatable.

To bemoan the securitization (not commoditization, for not all real estate is equally fungible) of real estate is, ultimately, to bemoan that certain properties are closer to employment, closer to community, closer to commerce. But this is inevitable.

To seek otherwise would be to try to persuade businesses (through tax incentives etc.) to relocate to less-desirable areas, so that people will follow and invest with human capital. This has been tried, many times, in many countries, for reasons ranging from the economically to politically ideological. It has failed. Again and again.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#134

Post by notpachet » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 1:51 PM UTC

bottled_poe wrote: post #113

hprotagonist wrote: post #17

"I'm not doing any harm," you say. "I just want to keep what I own, that's all." You own! You are like someone who sits down in a theater and keeps everyone else away, saying that what is there for everyone's use is your own...If everyone took only what they needed and gave the rest to those in need, there would be no such thing as rich and poor. After all, didn't you come into life naked, and won't you return naked…

It’s cute, but not a very practical philosophy though. Most valued resources are physically finite. Who decides how beachfront properties are allocated? Who decides who should clean the toilets?

Maybe we should all take turns cleaning the toilets. Like jury duty.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#135

Post by chii » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

NonNefarious wrote: post #123

smt88 wrote: post #5

I definitely do. It's something that turns a basic necessity into a speculative asset, with a price distorted by the money poured into it. Airbnb is also a deeply harmful influence on housing prices. Imagine if we did the same thing with, say, water: privatized it and then "democratized" ownership of it. It's easy to get retail investors to buy things at inflated, speculative prices, so the price of water would go up…

And what are we doing about CORPORATIONS buying up our neighborhoods? As far as I know, NOTHING.

"our" neighborhood implies that you own it - so if you owned something, and sold it, how can you complain that someone (or gasp, a corporation) is buying when you're selling?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#136

Post by Giorgi » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

No. I am against any "Government is your big brother" kind of thing, real estate is just like any other goods, like an internet or water or electricity, nobody feels uneasy when these were commoditized, so why would anyone feel same about real estate?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#137

Post by Victerius » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #116

smt88 wrote: post #5

I definitely do. It's something that turns a basic necessity into a speculative asset, with a price distorted by the money poured into it. Airbnb is also a deeply harmful influence on housing prices. Imagine if we did the same thing with, say, water: privatized it and then "democratized" ownership of it. It's easy to get retail investors to buy things at inflated, speculative prices, so the price of water would go up…

> It's something that turns a basic necessity into a speculative asset I see some broad parallels in this line of rhetoric to "Zeus brings misfortune because people are impious vs good fortune when they are worthy". It presumes a difference and a drive that is not there. All assets are both speculative and non-speculative at all times. There are no assets that cannot be bought speculatively and a house is always goin…

> There are problems in the housing market, but they are not to be found by worrying about people acting speculatively. People are responding to the real problem, whatever it is

We should do both. Build more housing and crack down on speculators.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#138

Post by nemo44x » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

Blackstone4 wrote: post #54

Kbelicius wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> agriculture, the foundation of the food supply, is one of the most commoditized markets that exist. And one of the most regulated and subsidized markets...

The US housing market is regulated and subsidised…the American dream of owning a home is socialist…US mortgages are guaranteed by federal government.. this doesn’t happen in most other countries..

It’s not really socialist at all. It’s in the governments best interest to have owners of properties. This leads to improvements making the capitalization of the country larger. It also develops more property tax capability.

A governments 2 main assets are its people and its land. Ensuring that people have ownership of the land ensures the people will continue to support the government as there’s mutual interest. So subsidizing loans via guarantees isn’t socializing so much as the government investing in itself and protecting its assets.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#139

Post by dmarlow » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

MerelyMortal wrote: post #109

sudden_dystopia wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing inherently wrong with landlords and rent. Anyone that says otherwise is a tankie. Landlords provide a valuable service. But there cannot be perpetual growth in rents like there is in say the growth of a startup. It’s the corporatization of landlords that is wreaking havoc by forcing them to maximize shareholder wealth. A simple solution is to bar corporations from charging rent for residential proper…

You're contradicting yourself. LLC is a corporation.

Yes, but the spirit of what was meant is that smaller groups could only be the owners. Perhaps a different kind of "corporation" is needed. Maybe one with limits, reporting transparency and other benefits wrt maintaining and improving the property.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#140

Post by hackerlight » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

Yes. The commons morally shouldn't be owned by anyone. They can own the building on top of the commons, because they built it, but not the commons (land) itself, which they had no role in creating. If we want to invent the concept of land ownership, then people should pay rent to society for the privilege of monopolizing a slice of the commons (and the privilege of soaking up a larger proportion of the benefit of public investment in the armed forces, police and public infrastructure such as roads).