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Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

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Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#331

Post by fisf »

jsmith45 wrote: post #224
dannyw wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The frontend started blocking OFAC-sanctioned addresses earlier this year. Do you think this logic should also apply to encrypted messaging apps? If you're a contributor to Matrix, or another open source FOSS tool, and you hear reports that criminals are using it (because criminals are a subset of the human population), should you be legally required to take all steps to backdoor it?

If you are aware that your app is being very disproportionately used to facilitate criminal transactions, you would generally be required to take steps to try to prevent or discourage such usage. This is especially true if you are profiting from your app (as the governments think the tornado cash developers were). This does not necessarily mean backdooring the app. Remember how Kim DotCom went down for operating Mega…

So, we arrest developers of metasploit and Tor?

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#332

Post by Ferrotin »

Sebb767 wrote: post #107
agotterer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic why haven’t the developers of Metasploit also been arrested? It’s hard to argue that the behavior of the software isn’t/couldn’t be used for nefarious purposes and to commit crimes. Anonymizing spending on it’s own is not a crime. Clearly the line is crossed if the developer is promoting the use of the software for illegal purposes. I’m only vaguely familiar with Tornado cash, was that the case? If not,…

> Anonymizing spending on it’s own is not a crime. Money laundering laws very much disagree with this.

Money laundering laws in the U.S. require some other crime to be involved.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#333

Post by _ktx2 »

seanw444 wrote: post #255
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN in its current avatar would probably cheer on if the Patriot Act was enacted today. Been on this site for a decade. Never seen it this filled with Big Gov and Big Tech apologists.

Yeah when I first discovered this site in like 2017, it seemed to be a place of tech-literate counter-culture folks. Now the counter-culture seems to be non-existent, and actually looked down on. At this point, the majority of the comments I read sound like a CNN anchor script. Ha, maybe it's their web developers.

One thing to recognize is that HN has had an influx of new users that are pretty right wing, at times using veiled far right speech. Years ago, it was filled with people who had stock very left wing (at times ridiculous) views that I wouldn't call "counter-culture" either. I only know this because I've had to report many of them.

My hypothesis is that each of these groups come here after being kicked out or pushed out of wherever they usually hang out. The ones that remain on HN after a period of time are the ones that dang doesn't wear out via moderation or haven't been outright banned. They eventually learn to be good HN members and then stay.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#334

Post by akimball »

rocqua wrote: post #308
suoduandao2 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justifiable by what, exactly? International trade in a multipolar world requires a money supply that no single government can arbitrarily enforce its will on. Is the argument that every government should have an unchecked ability to enforce its will on the medium of exchange?

We currently have a lot of international trade that does just fine being USD based. Are we not in a 'multipolar' world? I don't know that term.

...and the USD is used for far more illicit transactions than any other exchange medium. This will predictably change as privacy technologies become more widely adopted. For example, transactions on the Monero network have been growing at an exponential rate for several years.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#335

Post by programmarchy »

kube-system wrote: post #321
WFHRenaissance wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The right to privacy ends at the moment that it is used as an excuse to evade the law. Sufficiently good use of sufficiently good privacy technology would make this judgement impossible. What happens then? Good luck not becoming a police state.

You might be able to encrypt some information associated with a crime, but you can't encrypt the real world manifestation of crime. https://xkcd.com/538/

The comic proves the parent's point. Drugging and hitting people with a wrench (i.e. torturing) to extract information is exactly what police states do.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#336

Post by zomglings »

JohnHaugeland wrote: post #198
clippablematt wrote: post #60

Ah yes, arrest developers of open source privacy code and blame them for North Korea money laundering rather than going after the people actually committing crimes. Sounds about right. Privacy is not a crime, it’s a human right! Sorry that it makes the polices job harder, but our rights are more important. And didn’t we go through all this already in the 90s? Are we now gonna start arresting all cryptographers? This…

This isn't open source privacy code. Whether or not someone else does something bad with it isn't relevant. Until you can face what it really is, you aren't going to come to terms with what's happening. This is like making unlicensed guns that don't follow safety or tracking regulations, then complaining "but I'm not the burglar, I didn't kill anyone" when you get shut down. This is and always has been the obvious ex…

What do you think the purpose of this code is?

There are people operating on blockchains in which transaction parameters are a matter of public record who: 1. May not want individual amounts and recipients to be publicly inspectable. 2. And are not criminals.

It may not be a right, but Tornado Cash is absolutely a tool to increase privacy. It is not solely for criminals to liquidate blockchain assets.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#338

Post by akimball »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #304
suoduandao2 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is the world not multipolar? An argument could be made that the US stopped being the arbiter of last resort wrt the medium of trade since the Ukraine war, but before that point, it was certainly not multipolar. There was one political entity that, along with its allies, controlled the value of money, and they were disincentivised from cheating too hard by the fact that they could dictate terms to the rest of the wor…

> that's a future you're on board with I'm rejecting the premise that we need a neutral money supply. (I reject the notion such a thing can exist. Money--monetary value, even--are social constructs.) International trade in a multipolar world with sovereign currencies and commodities works. It has since at least the Bronze Age. So yes, if someone wants to cart around gold or use crypto, that's fine. But it doesn't mag…

Bronze age? No. Once gold leaves the sovereigns borders, it is a neutral money.

Since 1971? Yes. That is a very brief experiment in monetary history, and quite Lindy. It can be validly estimated to have 51 years of life left in it (albeit with vast error bars, difficult to calculate).

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#339

Post by f38zf5vdt »

chitowneats wrote: post #330
dcolkitt wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the international law enforcement community is really trying to go after "all cryptographers" why do you think we haven't seen more arrests? Why do you think they only arrested this guy? Because the standard playbook for "cracking down" is to first win cases against the least sympathetic, most prosecutable targets. Once that's under your belt, you gradually expand outwards to increasingly ordinary people. It's w…

"Some will ... arrest anyone who's ever donated to Planned Parenthood" This is a hysterical prediction.

Various states already prohibit using public money to fund abortions, a prohibition on private funds for an act they consider extremely illegal and equivalent to murder is not a stretch.

"12 states prohibit state family planning funds from going to any entity that provides abortions."

https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-family...

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#340

Post by formerly_proven »

chitowneats wrote: post #330
dcolkitt wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the international law enforcement community is really trying to go after "all cryptographers" why do you think we haven't seen more arrests? Why do you think they only arrested this guy? Because the standard playbook for "cracking down" is to first win cases against the least sympathetic, most prosecutable targets. Once that's under your belt, you gradually expand outwards to increasingly ordinary people. It's w…

"Some will ... arrest anyone who's ever donated to Planned Parenthood" This is a hysterical prediction.

a) Interesting choice of words b) Donating to PP is aiding murder (née abortions), it's a small step to abetment.
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