This makes so little sense to me. I don't know how much information is made public by the Dutch justice system but I would really like to see an affidavit or something like it to understand what specific charges are levied against that developer.
Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash
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Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash
#12So a software developer is held responsible for the software. If the software is largely SaaS, then I can see the sense in that. A software developer of SaaS is also a service developer, arguably even a service operator although that depends on how the service is developed and operated. I'm sure the judge will be thrilled to have to listen to arguments about the with the nuances of dev, ops, devops and a distributed…
Being arrested is not that big of a deal- it merely means they suspect that you committed a crime and want to question you. I would also wait and see what they are accused of, maybe there is more to it than simply contributing to an open source project.
Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash
#13So a software developer is held responsible for the software. If the software is largely SaaS, then I can see the sense in that. A software developer of SaaS is also a service developer, arguably even a service operator although that depends on how the service is developed and operated. I'm sure the judge will be thrilled to have to listen to arguments about the with the nuances of dev, ops, devops and a distributed…
Just like Boeing/Airbus were held responsible for 911 attacks by developing and building the planes
Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash
#14No post body was provided.
Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash
#15So a software developer is held responsible for the software. If the software is largely SaaS, then I can see the sense in that. A software developer of SaaS is also a service developer, arguably even a service operator although that depends on how the service is developed and operated. I'm sure the judge will be thrilled to have to listen to arguments about the with the nuances of dev, ops, devops and a distributed…
If you design software to do a thing and then the software is used to do that thing, it follows that you’re responsible. Whether you believe that the sanctions make sense or not is one thing, but to argue that the developer of tornado cash is not responsible for… the behaviour tornado cash… feels like a hard sell.
By that logic why haven’t the developers of Metasploit also been arrested? It’s hard to argue that the behavior of the software isn’t/couldn’t be used for nefarious purposes and to commit crimes.
Anonymizing spending on it’s own is not a crime. Clearly the line is crossed if the developer is promoting the use of the software for illegal purposes. I’m only vaguely familiar with Tornado cash, was that the case? If not, how do we as a society/community draw the line on determining a developers intentions?
Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you design software to do a thing and then the software is used to do that thing, it follows that you’re responsible. Whether you believe that the sanctions make sense or not is one thing, but to argue that the developer of tornado cash is not responsible for… the behaviour tornado cash… feels like a hard sell.
Should knife makers be held responsible if someone stabs someone? TC was designed for privacy and bad actors _also_ took advantage of that. Prosecutors basically need to prove that privacy is bad, good luck with that.
>Should knife makers be held responsible if someone stabs someone?
Not a valid comparison.
Courts and law have long held the completely reasonable position that if the main intent of a product is not to commit crime, that those using it for a crime are held responsible, not the producer.
Conversely, if a product is designed to facilitate crime, or is used significantly more for crime than not, then the liability starts to shift to the producer (as well as the users).
This is the latter case. If the courts show that the producers knew the product was used for crime and added features to assist that on purpose, then they should be held liable.
According the to article, 14% of money moved through the mixer was of criminal origin. If any bank did that, they'd rightfully get hammered by the law (and they do, for vastly smaller ratios of criminal activity).
There are laws about facilitating criminal money laundering.
Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash
#17So a software developer is held responsible for the software. If the software is largely SaaS, then I can see the sense in that. A software developer of SaaS is also a service developer, arguably even a service operator although that depends on how the service is developed and operated. I'm sure the judge will be thrilled to have to listen to arguments about the with the nuances of dev, ops, devops and a distributed…
Just like Boeing/Airbus were held responsible for 911 attacks by developing and building the planes
The big difference: Airbus and Boeing do everything to prevent attacks and hijacking and it is against their fundamental interest and the interest of their customers.
Whereas, for a crypto network, the more funds flows in, the better for the operators and eventually for the developers (who gets paid by node operators via increased coin value or donations). The less compliance or questions asked, or the more anonymity = the more shady flows.
Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash
#18So a software developer is held responsible for the software. If the software is largely SaaS, then I can see the sense in that. A software developer of SaaS is also a service developer, arguably even a service operator although that depends on how the service is developed and operated. I'm sure the judge will be thrilled to have to listen to arguments about the with the nuances of dev, ops, devops and a distributed…
It seems reasonable to expect that Ethereum operators share responsibility in case of usage of their network for malicious or criminal activity. They have the technical means to control what goes on there or not. Otherwise it's like if you run P2P nodes and claim pedo pictures aren't your problem.
> Otherwise it's like if you run P2P nodes and claim pedo pictures aren't your problem.
If the network is completely p2p, they really aren't.
OTOH, it seems foolish to develop/run a p2p network and publish your real name along with it. It's asking for trouble.
Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you design software to do a thing and then the software is used to do that thing, it follows that you’re responsible. Whether you believe that the sanctions make sense or not is one thing, but to argue that the developer of tornado cash is not responsible for… the behaviour tornado cash… feels like a hard sell.
Should knife makers be held responsible if someone stabs someone? TC was designed for privacy and bad actors _also_ took advantage of that. Prosecutors basically need to prove that privacy is bad, good luck with that.
>Should knife makers be held responsible if someone stabs someone?
Only if you made and advertised a "human killing knife", so in this case I have no idea how this software was advertised by the devs and community.
I think the intention is important in this case, what was the purpose and who benefited the most , if 99% of knives are used for bad things then you would probably have some ideas about that issues.
Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash
#20There’s a big legal distinction whether the developers are collecting fees from operation of the service, since that’s very different from merely developing open source software. I’m curious how this develops > It is suspected that persons behind this organisation have made large-scale profits from these transactions.
Exactly like original of developers of Bitcoin, it's not because they are not running the nodes themselves that they are not benefiting from facilitating ponzi or money laundering.
Nodes are running the network, and developers earn through increased coin value and both are necessary part of the operations of the service.