Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#341

Post by PretzelPirate » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:10 PM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #208

datalopers wrote: post #50

It’s odd to me how people complain so much about being asked to write code (whiteboard, take-home, leetcode puzzles) in order to land a coding job. Is a prospective employer supposed to suss this out entirely through verbal questions?

Have you ever heard of a restaurant having applicants mix drinks behind the bar for an hour to see if they're really as good as they claim to be? How many administrative offices have their applicants perform regular tasks on dummy data sets? And, the other way around: how often do applicants have their prospective team lead perform an hour of work for them, to see if the company is a decent match? I think these tests…

As much as I don’t like unpaid take home tests, the restaurant industry does have unpaid tests for potential chefs: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stage_(cooking)

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#342

Post by jasode » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:11 PM UTC

LocalPCGuy wrote: post #270

jasode wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>no-one complains about -- a take-home piece of work paid at a reasonable rate. I've seen multiple comments in past HN threads of programmers complaining about any after-hours coding homework (even if paid) because "they have kids and don't have time or energy for that" . Probably the only suggested interview method that gets the fewest complaints from candidates is the "let's have a casual chat and just shoot the br…

I think there is a big middle ground between no skill assessments/casual chat and onerous skill assessments that gatekeep the profession to those that can spend hours of their own time after-hours, one that the vast majority of devs interviewing likely fall into. Hiring managers need to actually spend time constructing a process that has questions (and if needed, exercises) that specifically determine whether a candi…

>I think there is a big middle ground between no skill assessments/casual chat and onerous skill assessments [...] Hiring managers need to actually spend time constructing a process that has questions (and if needed, exercises)

The problem is you're using your own perspective of "reasonable middle ground" and thinking that other candidates would agree with you. Many would not.

Here's an example of "you shouldn't have to go through that crap when your resume clearly states you are capable." : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11596553

So regardless of any "job-specific" skills assessment you come up with, you will still get complaints from many because they feel their resume of experience, (or github portfolio, or college degree, etc) -- should already prove that they know how to code. This is not an uncommon sentiment! E.g. "Making me demonstrate my coding skill is an insult when you could just look at my resume credentials. Does a pharmacist show how they dispense pills to get hired?!?"

Or variations on your "reasonable skills assessment" with creative exercises such as "here's an existing bug ticket for a code defect; show us how you debug it" ... still has some complaints of "demonstrating my coding skill is unfair because I get nervous in interview situations because there's an imbalanced power dynamic between interviewer and interviewee."

Ok, instead of interview because you get nervous under pressure, here's some coding homework. Of which this "reasonable" alternative has pushback from some comments in this subthread.

Various threads about "hiring is broken" is evidence of the ever elusive "reasonable middle ground" that we're chasing after.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#343

Post by fsloth » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:11 PM UTC

rkangel wrote: post #311

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. Shirley, you jest. Doctors are asked to perform "demo surgeries," all the time. Lawyers are asked to argue "demo cases" in court all the time. Social workers are expected to help patients through trauma, in "demo therapy sessions," all the time. CEOs are asked to do "demo IPOs," all the time. CPAs are asked to do "d…

My view actually is that most of the world is actually really bad at hiring, and we spend lots of time complaining about the tech world doing it but that's because the tech world tries a lot harder. This is anecdata, but based on talking to my wife and friends who work in other industries most recruitment is pot luck. They interview the candidate for 1 hour, maybe 2, don't have any consistency in what they're asking…

The role of a programmer is really weird in the sense that the complexity of tasks you are expected to do is in no way limited by your job title or domain.

I presume technology sector pays more attention because the task of programmer is ill defined, and that it's quite hard to define exactly what you are looking for based on external standards.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#344

Post by nnoitra » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:11 PM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #30

nnoitra wrote: post #12

6 hours is too little, Google will make you practice algorithms for months and still people will willingly do it.

Google doesn’t require you to do that in any Google-exclusive way. You can take that prep to an Amazon or Facebook interview. If it were a ship building company asking you to do 6 months of ship building business logic to get a job that would be different, for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ysH2Glw5w

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#345

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:12 PM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #260

Victerius wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyers need to have passed the bar. Accountants need their CPA. Doctors their MD. Pharmacists their Pharm.D. Finance professionals their CFA. And so on. Software engineers making 150K with only a four year degree and some leetcode have nothing to complain about. Take homes? Whiteboards? Cry me a river. Try to pass the bar or get through residency instead.

You pass the bar 1 time. Not every couple years.

> You pass the bar 1 time. Not every couple years.

You maintain a current law license, which requires having passed the bar once, continuing education requirements, and the absence of professional mal-, mis-, or non-feasance sufficient to lose that license. Taken together, the requirements are ongoing, though some individual elements are one-time.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#346

Post by ThePadawan » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:12 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #126

PaywallBuster wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies do pay a lot to fly candidates, put them in hotels and feed them for onsite interview. I tend to see 1) quick phone call with recruiter 2) please make assignment in Europe at least

That's a red flag to me.I want to at least speak with someone on the tech team before I agree to do a few hours of work for free.

Yeah, over here, companies don't understand why anyone would want that. Surely the generic job description with 10 bullet points has answered all your questions, or you wouldn't have applied (/s)?

Then they go on to complain that candidates will jump off and that they can't find enough employees.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#347

Post by Tevias » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

warrenm wrote: post #117

wikfwikf wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'The HN gestalt' seems to mean that you have taken comments by completely different people with different preferences and synthesized them as though they were all said by the same person?

And that that "same person" is somehow the zeitgeist of HN itself!

That sounds more like the kaput poltergeist of HN!

…

Now, I want to eat pumpernickel and am shaken by wanderlust in the hinterland.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#348

Post by fsloth » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #337

rkangel wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view actually is that most of the world is actually really bad at hiring, and we spend lots of time complaining about the tech world doing it but that's because the tech world tries a lot harder. This is anecdata, but based on talking to my wife and friends who work in other industries most recruitment is pot luck. They interview the candidate for 1 hour, maybe 2, don't have any consistency in what they're asking…

Lots of industries have licensing requirements. My friends that are all of the above (except CEOs), need to have licenses (and often, specific schooling). They work hard for these licenses, and generally have to pass lots of difficult tests. They usually also have to keep working to stay current. The mere thought of doing that, in the tech world, though, brings about collective apoplexy. I'm not especially a fan of h…

" good managers has always been important, and there's really no way to test for that. For whatever reason, we seem to think we get to play by different rules."

I presume one reason may be because tech industry may be a bit insular, and full of people who enjoy creating complex models of the world - trying to find a perfect technological solution to everything (when they should just try to find a good hiring manager in stead).

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#349

Post by ThePadawan » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

walthamstow wrote: post #80

Counterpoint: as a self-taught SWE with only a degree in economics, I wouldn't have been able to get my first job in the industry without a take-home assignment. It was the only possible way to demonstrate that I was qualified to take the job.

What about "Here's 3 classes from our codebase [obviously redacted], can you tell us what they do and why, and any changes you would make?"

I have prepared scenarios like this for applications (with some intentional bugs ranging from off-by-one-errors to big architectural fuck-ups) and I think it overlaps a lot with what a candidate would have to do in a take-home assignment anyway.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#350

Post by aitchnyu » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

manholio wrote: post #164

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

Or you could just pay people for their time at the prevailing rate, > 50$/h cash. Here is your homework, we expect someone at your level to spend no more than two days on it, here is your $800, have fun.

This is a lucrative although unethical income for much of the world. I'm an Indian dev with 10 years experience in relatively cutting edge tech and 3 interviews would match my salary.