Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash • Hacker News Board

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#151

Post by theonlyklas » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

111111101101 wrote: post #135

sph wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Satoshi has demonstrated inhuman levels of restraint. The only explanation is that he is dead. The others are that he is not human, or that it's a committee defying Hanlon's razor: i.e. not governed by stupidity like most human affairs, but malice. Both are equally improbable.

> The only explanation is that he is dead. He might be dead but someone has control of his keys & logins as they used his accounts to defend Dorian Nakamoto. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/03/06/bitcoin-...

And to advertise NFTs on December 24, 2021.

http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-sour...

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#152

Post by dannyw » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

throwoutway wrote: post #117

Tepix wrote: post #29

Wow, just wow. Am i alone in thinking this is not going to fly if all he did was write some software that helps with your financial anonymity? There must be more. Perhaps he also deployed it? That would be a different story. The article is quite murky in that regard. Perhaps they don't know yet. In there is an interesting paragraph explaining what Tornado Cash is: … The ( criminal ) origin of the cryptocurrencies is…

I think the only real case the gov would have is if he ‘knowingly’ supported laundering for sanctioned nations, like if he noticed it, and commented on Twitter or discord to a friend like “Ha! Look, DPRK used my tool”. However, if that did happen, the gov also just gave him threee days lead time to delete any evidence of that, which is extraordinary. I’m surprised the arrest and sanction did not happen on the same da…

They were waiting for the reactions from the community. There's a low chance there could have been extreme and unified non-compliance, e.g. everyone depositing funds to Tornado Cash (which is still up and operating at https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipns/tornadocash.eth/ )

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#153

Post by JumpCrisscross » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

whatisweb3 wrote: post #128

My comment from 2 days ago: > The US sanctioning Tornado Cash and the resulting repercussions is deeply concerning. Whether or not you like crypto, you should not be supporting this if you are a researcher, academic, technologist, cryptographer, or privacy advocate. The code for Tornado Cash is a series of cryptographic and mathematical functions that can be repurposed for a variety of applications unrelated to priva…

> US sanctioning Tornado Cash

Zero evidence this is connected to U.S. sanctions. Dutch law protects even cash transactions less than American law.

When the investigation started, in June, the U.S. had already released evidence Tornado Cash was used to launder money. If a Dutch person kept working on it, it might be trivial to show they broke Dutch criminal statute.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#154

Post by Rackedup » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:15 PM UTC

pxeger1 wrote: post #109

If I create a new type of leather wallet and then North Korea uses it for money laundering, can I be charged for "facilitation"? What about if I discovered electricity, which lead to money laundering? Where is the line here, and who defines it?

I think that they are doing this purely to hurt crypto. They keep adding new laws when they see an opportunity where crypto could become more useful... it's like a frog in a warming pot.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#155

Post by dannyw » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:15 PM UTC

For those who think this is good:

Private keys can be represented in text. Like this: KwTHJw865SLeTAjK7otYb5bL5mwutBb2vDxxF7kGf5XvY7QttnvM

Encrypted messaging apps like Matrix or Signal, can be used to send strings with private keys, anonymously.

It's very difficult to hold a position that financial privacy tools are bad, but encrypted messaging apps are good; because they are really not that different.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#156

Post by JumpCrisscross » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:16 PM UTC

Tepix wrote: post #29

Wow, just wow. Am i alone in thinking this is not going to fly if all he did was write some software that helps with your financial anonymity? There must be more. Perhaps he also deployed it? That would be a different story. The article is quite murky in that regard. Perhaps they don't know yet. In there is an interesting paragraph explaining what Tornado Cash is: … The ( criminal ) origin of the cryptocurrencies is…

> Am i alone in thinking this is not going to fly if all he did was write some software that helps with your financial anonymity?

Probably. That said, he is arrested under Dutch law. We have no evidence this is tied to U.S. sanctions. As others mention, Dutch law restricts cash transactions in ways U.S. law does not.

Also, in June—when the link says they began the investigation—it was publicly known Tornado was being used to launder money. If the developer kept working on it, they knew what they were doing. Again, I think that wouldn’t per se lead to criminal charges in the U.S. But we’re sticklers about speech and privacy in ways most of the world is not.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#157

Post by dannyw » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:16 PM UTC

louwrentius wrote: post #74

He wasn’t just developing software, he seems to also been involved with operating the Tornado mixer service, thus enabling / facilitating money laundering and evasion of sanctions.

Does contributing to an encrypted messaging app, like Signal or Matrix, also mean you're enabling / facilitating child pornography and terrorism?

Keep in mind that a cryptocurrency private key is just a bunch of bytes, like this: `KwTHJw865SLeTAjK7otYb5bL5mwutBb2vDxxF7kGf5XvY7QttnvM`

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#158

Post by whatisweb3 » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:17 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #153

whatisweb3 wrote: post #128

My comment from 2 days ago: > The US sanctioning Tornado Cash and the resulting repercussions is deeply concerning. Whether or not you like crypto, you should not be supporting this if you are a researcher, academic, technologist, cryptographer, or privacy advocate. The code for Tornado Cash is a series of cryptographic and mathematical functions that can be repurposed for a variety of applications unrelated to priva…

> US sanctioning Tornado Cash Zero evidence this is connected to U.S. sanctions. Dutch law protects even cash transactions less than American law. When the investigation started, in June, the U.S. had already released evidence Tornado Cash was used to launder money. If a Dutch person kept working on it, it might be trivial to show they broke Dutch criminal statute.

The first time a developer of open source, non-custodial and autonomous smart contract code has been arrested comes days after the US sanctions the same smart contract.

Probably just a coincidence.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#159

Post by dannyw » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:17 PM UTC

jsmith45 wrote: post #132

dangerface wrote: post #68

I understand why they arrested him but it doesn't seem like he did anything thats illegal so it will be interesting to see what charge they bring or how they intend to differentiate between tornado cash and HSBC laundering money for cartels.

He created and presumably deployed a service that facilitates illegal money laundering. From what I have heard approximately 20% of the volume is of coins are known to come from crime. That far exceeds the threshold for which an organization must take steps to try to prevent these things. It might not have been possible change the existing deployed contracts, or to shut the service down entirely (I’m not actually sur…

The frontend started blocking OFAC-sanctioned addresses earlier this year.

Do you think this logic should also apply to encrypted messaging apps? If you're a contributor to Matrix, or another open source FOSS tool, and you hear reports that criminals are using it (because criminals are a subset of the human population), should you be legally required to take all steps to backdoor it?

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#160

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:17 PM UTC

biglearner1day wrote: post #96

threeseed wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rather than going after the people actually committing crimes Actually they go after the people committing the crime AND those facilitating it. > Privacy is not a crime, it’s a human right (a) Not a human right, (b) not enshrined in any country's law, (c) does not absolve illegal behaviour.

> Actually they go after the people committing the crime AND those facilitating it. But only if it is in their interest. We don't see other services and platforms sanctioned for facilitating illegal activity. Furthermore, the Data Protection Directive does give users the (human!) right to privacy, considering that crypto isn't a currency, it's merely your private data which is also protected by GDPR.

[deleted]