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Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

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Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#21

Post by koolba »

ChrisLomont wrote: post #16
tiborsaas wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should knife makers be held responsible if someone stabs someone? TC was designed for privacy and bad actors _also_ took advantage of that. Prosecutors basically need to prove that privacy is bad, good luck with that.

>Should knife makers be held responsible if someone stabs someone? Not a valid comparison. Courts and law have long held the completely reasonable position that if the main intent of a product is not to commit crime, that those using it for a crime are held responsible, not the producer. Conversely, if a product is designed to facilitate crime, or is used significantly more for crime than not, then the liability star…

> This is the latter case.

How is privacy not a legitimate use case?

> According the to article, 14% of money moved through the mixer was of criminal origin.

I’m pretty sure the majority of duffel bags sold in cartel controlled areas of Mexico are used to transport drugs or drug money, that doesn’t mean selling them should be a crime.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#24

Post by tiborsaas »

simion314 wrote: post #19
tiborsaas wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should knife makers be held responsible if someone stabs someone? TC was designed for privacy and bad actors _also_ took advantage of that. Prosecutors basically need to prove that privacy is bad, good luck with that.

>Should knife makers be held responsible if someone stabs someone? Only if you made and advertised a "human killing knife", so in this case I have no idea how this software was advertised by the devs and community. I think the intention is important in this case, what was the purpose and who benefited the most , if 99% of knives are used for bad things then you would probably have some ideas about that issues.

I've seen (but never used) TC before. The site was totally neutral with minimal explanation. I've made the comparison because both are really simple tools.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#25

Post by rascul »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #12
Arnt wrote: post #2

So a software developer is held responsible for the software. If the software is largely SaaS, then I can see the sense in that. A software developer of SaaS is also a service developer, arguably even a service operator although that depends on how the service is developed and operated. I'm sure the judge will be thrilled to have to listen to arguments about the with the nuances of dev, ops, devops and a distributed…

Being arrested is not that big of a deal- it merely means they suspect that you committed a crime and want to question you. I would also wait and see what they are accused of, maybe there is more to it than simply contributing to an open source project.

It can easily turn into a big deal if the arrest means you're locked in a cell for awhile.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#26

Post by willcipriano »

rvnx wrote: post #9
Arnt wrote: post #2

So a software developer is held responsible for the software. If the software is largely SaaS, then I can see the sense in that. A software developer of SaaS is also a service developer, arguably even a service operator although that depends on how the service is developed and operated. I'm sure the judge will be thrilled to have to listen to arguments about the with the nuances of dev, ops, devops and a distributed…

It seems reasonable to expect that Ethereum operators share responsibility in case of usage of their network for malicious or criminal activity. They have the technical means to control what goes on there or not. Otherwise it's like if you run P2P nodes and claim pedo pictures aren't your problem.

I thought standard procedure here is you pay a fine that is a fraction of your revenue, not jail time.

Like here: https://www.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/2013/investing-n...

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#27

Post by yamrzou »

rvnx wrote: post #9
Arnt wrote: post #2

So a software developer is held responsible for the software. If the software is largely SaaS, then I can see the sense in that. A software developer of SaaS is also a service developer, arguably even a service operator although that depends on how the service is developed and operated. I'm sure the judge will be thrilled to have to listen to arguments about the with the nuances of dev, ops, devops and a distributed…

It seems reasonable to expect that Ethereum operators share responsibility in case of usage of their network for malicious or criminal activity. They have the technical means to control what goes on there or not. Otherwise it's like if you run P2P nodes and claim pedo pictures aren't your problem.

> it's like if you run P2P nodes and claim pedo pictures aren't your problem.

It's more like being arrested for developing a Bittorrent client

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#28

Post by retcore »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #12
Arnt wrote: post #2

So a software developer is held responsible for the software. If the software is largely SaaS, then I can see the sense in that. A software developer of SaaS is also a service developer, arguably even a service operator although that depends on how the service is developed and operated. I'm sure the judge will be thrilled to have to listen to arguments about the with the nuances of dev, ops, devops and a distributed…

Being arrested is not that big of a deal- it merely means they suspect that you committed a crime and want to question you. I would also wait and see what they are accused of, maybe there is more to it than simply contributing to an open source project.

In the UK arrest is lawful simply to ensure that your statement or interview can be obtained, entirely without any kind of suspicion. Still will disqualify you for automatic entry in the US however.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#29

Post by Tepix »

Wow, just wow. Am i alone in thinking this is not going to fly if all he did was write some software that helps with your financial anonymity? There must be more. Perhaps he also deployed it? That would be a different story. The article is quite murky in that regard. Perhaps they don't know yet.

In there is an interesting paragraph explaining what Tornado Cash is:

… The (criminal) origin of the cryptocurrencies is often not or hardly checked by such mixing services. Users of a mixing service mostly do this to increase their anonymity.

Note how they sneaked "criminal" in there. There are of course legitimate reasons to desire anonymity for financial transactions! It's one of the reasons people like to pay cash.

Satoshi Nakamoto is wise to remain anonymous.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#30

Post by throwaway0a5e »

once_inc wrote: post #23

If this developer only created the mixing service smart contract and wasn't actively operating it or advocating for it, I doubt Dutch judges can rule him guilty for money laundering. The 9/11 reference made by others is very much on par.

Even if he only created the contract the developer essentially thumbed his nose at the state. That is the kind of "crime" that government takes very seriously. If they want to screw him they will. It's just a question of how thick the veneer of legitimacy on the screwage will be. It's not like this guy has some vocal political minority to back him up so there's not much to stop them.
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