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IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

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Re: IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

#111
post #75

The reason for this is almost entirely the Earned Income Tax Credit. The IRS estimates 21-26% of all EITC claims are improper. The rules are quite complex, which results in more errors and it is relatively straightforward for the IRS to detect certain classes of mistake or fraud through automation (i.e. to detect if the same child was claimed as a dependent by two different people on their return). Congress made the…

> Is the IRS just supposed to ignore that? Yes. Or, better yet, just give it to everyone and pay for it by: 1. Eliminating the carried interest tax credit, which has somehow survived 15+ years. It is quite literally a giveaway to hedge fund managers who get to pay lower taxes on managements because reasons. It most recently survived by being removed from the Inflation Reduction Act at the behest of Senator Kirsten Se…

> In fact, auditing anyone who makes less than $50,000 a year should be illegal. Maybe even $100,000.

Why would anyone who made under $50,000 or $100,000 ever bother to pay one cent of taxes if you did that?

Re: IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

#112

And we're now going to get 87,000 more auditors. This is the largest increase in the federal police force (they are all armed) ever. The politicos are already dancing around this saying how "middle class" people will not have an increased chance of audit.

Whew boy, no. Revenue Agents and Revenue Officers do not carry firearms. Revenue Agents perform audits and are not police. Take the tin foil hat off and quit spreading this FUD.

No tin in my hat.

https://news.yahoo.com/irs-requires-special-agents-carry-130...

Re: IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were wealthy enough to be /actually/ affected by the IRS expansion (400k+/yr) it would be a wise investment to spread articles like this to make sure The People are as against the IRS expansion as possible. I'm curious what the avg income level of your downvoters is... ;-)

A 2022 $400K/year threshold hits population A. With inflation, The 2023 population A is much larger. The idea of $400K/year being slated as a "minority of easy-to-dismissed wealthy" will be an important frame to keep alive as population A keeps growing due to inflation.

Population A is a miniscule fraction of today's earners. Even if it doubles 3 times, it will still be a small percentage. We have a long, long runway until we need to figure out of $400k is too big of a population.

Re: IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

#114
post #75

The reason for this is almost entirely the Earned Income Tax Credit. The IRS estimates 21-26% of all EITC claims are improper. The rules are quite complex, which results in more errors and it is relatively straightforward for the IRS to detect certain classes of mistake or fraud through automation (i.e. to detect if the same child was claimed as a dependent by two different people on their return). Congress made the…

> Is the IRS just supposed to ignore that? Yes. Or, better yet, just give it to everyone and pay for it by: 1. Eliminating the carried interest tax credit, which has somehow survived 15+ years. It is quite literally a giveaway to hedge fund managers who get to pay lower taxes on managements because reasons. It most recently survived by being removed from the Inflation Reduction Act at the behest of Senator Kirsten Se…

This is certainly the hottest possible hot take.

> Have inheritance trigger a taxable event. This includes, by extension, allowing heirs to inherit stocks and property on a stepped up basis for CGT purposes;

This works for billionaires but harms regular people. If you applied capital gains tax to grandpa's modest gift to his grandchildren the grand children may very well end up with nearly nothing. In many states property taxes are reassessed upon property transfer in a will, so if your grandparents/parents had a really good property tax rate, you may end up paying so much tax that you can't afford to keep the house.

There are already enough ways to rob the middle class. No thank you.

> Tax stocks on market value every year just like we do with property.

This isn't done because the universe of ways you can move, adjust, hedge, and sell stock is too broad. Again, this inadvertently damages the middle class who by-and-large are passive investors. I already pay enough tax, thank you.

> Excessive audits of poor people with a deliberately complex system is punitive by design. Spending time and effort (and money) auditing the taxes of poor people is ridiculous.

If you look at the problem from the perspective of a relatively understaffed organization it is far easier to automate the common errors less well off people make. Having been on the receiving end of this majority of the audits are a simple letter saying "you screwed up, you actually owe this much" and nothing more. Auditing the ultra-wealthy takes an actual dedicated team to do because the ways that these people illegally hide money are complex and ever-changing. This is why nothing we have done to repatriate USD, or "tax the billionaires" has worked since the dawn of the country.

It honestly sounds like your statement here is actually a thin veil over just letting anyone making under $N exploit the system at (once again) the cost of the middle class. Moreover, the title of OP is deliberately inflammatory. The audit rate below 100k is extremely low. The delta can be explained by the difficulty involved.

> Enforcement of a program like the EITC is a cost you do not have to pay. It is a waste of resources.

It is possible to commit extremely complex fraud with the EITC. I pay so much tax as a software engineer I'd like to see other people get pounded by the IRS too regardless of how much more or less than me they make.

> In fact, auditing anyone who makes less than $50,000 a year should be illegal. Maybe even $100,000.

lol.

Re: IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

#115
> Does it make sense from either an equity or revenue standpoint to focus IRS’s limited firepower on the poorest taxpayers among us – those with incomes so low they have filed returns claiming an anti-poverty earned income tax credit?

Yes, in a sense it does. If you are auditing in order to catch under-reported income, it does make sense to look at lower income returns.

If someone who made $500,000 reported $20,000, their return would be found among those from the honest poor taxpayers, not among those from the rich.

Moreover, someone doing something that egregious is probably dumb enough to be easily busted by the audit processing, and the yield would be high.

Higher earners will have tax returns which are professionally prepared, and complex. Auditing them is going to be a more time consuming process requiring more expertise, and have a low probability of yielding anything.

Re: IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

#116
And the bill that just passed adds 87000 new IRS agents. Additionally every single democrat voted against an amendment that would have prevented new agents from auditing individuals and small businesses with less than $400,000 of taxable income.

Re: IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is 100% the story. The IRS can help make sure everyone is playing fair if we sufficiently fund them. And they can stop policing all the little issues and go after the big ones if we sufficiently fund them. AND sufficiently funding them is expected to increase tax revenue above the cost of funding them . It's the most obvious and should be the most bipartisan approach. It's introducing no new taxes, it's equitabl…

> should be the most bipartisan approach Lol [1][2][3]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/07/07/irs-taxes... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-infrastructure-deal-teet... [3] https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/middle-class-americans-...

I'm aware, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in these specific cases.

Re: IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what? What about defining "correspondence audits" is political?

For some people, it’s easier to ask them what isn’t political than what is. Once you realize that, their constant strife makes a lot more sense.

I mean, I'm a Marxist and I think lots of stuff is political, but even I can't figure out what that poster was trying to say.

Re: IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

#119

And the bill that just passed adds 87000 new IRS agents. Additionally every single democrat voted against an amendment that would have prevented new agents from auditing individuals and small businesses with less than $400,000 of taxable income.

Interesting, source on the amendment? Was there a poison pill in it?

Re: IRS audits poorest families at five times the rate for everyone else

#120
I really wish they would quit calling the simple these-numbers-don't-match correspondence things "audits". It gives a very different picture to what's happening.

Yeah, if you're poor you're a lot more likely to be doing your taxes by hand and thus you have much more room to make a copied-the-number-wrong mistake. Hence a high rate of "audits" in lower incomes. There's also more room to misunderstand something and enter wrong numbers.

Separate them out based on whether it's just a letter kicked out by the computer and the taxpayer easily remedies whatever the computer was complaining about vs cases where the IRS is actually hunting for wrongdoing (say, unreported income from a cash-heavy small business.)

I do agree, however, they need to target those with more. It's a lot harder so they tend not to and that has become much more severe because the Republicans have been deliberately starving them, they don't have the resources to do much of any actual auditing, it's almost all just these-numbers-don't-agree letters from the computer.

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