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Bitcoin Lightning network could disrupt $150B year payment/remittance industry

blog.coinbase.com

81–90 of 92 posts

Re: Bitcoin Lightning network could disrupt $150B year payment/remittance industry

#81
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm so I have a channel with Target, Target has a channel with my neighbor, and my neighbor has a channel with my cousin. You're saying I could send money to my cousin and Target and my neighbor would take some sort of cut if they agree to process the transaction? How do they prevent double spend? What if I have that network, and also a channel with Walmart, and I send all my money to Walmart at the same time I send…

Why you are posting so much about something you really don’t understand at all?

I was posting to understand, and people helped me

Re: Bitcoin Lightning network could disrupt $150B year payment/remittance industry

#83
post #73

I'm sick of hearing about what crypto "could" do. I used BTC to pay for a few lunches back when transaction fees were in the cents rather than hundreds (?) of dollars or worse, and it was pretty neat, but it's clear today that the crypto ecosystem has largely become a paradise for grifters, scammers, fraudsters, and straight-up criminals, and (more generally) just another way for the rich and sophisticated to get ric…

The lightning network described in this post explicitly solves both the speed and cost problems with Bitcoin transactions. This still leaves the scam/grifter problem in the ecosystem, but your dismissal is ignorant of the major content of the article. I encourage you to read it and then update your comment. I’m not a crypto enthusiast, just someone who prefers higher quality discussion on HN.

I have been hearing about Lightning as a solution for Bitcoin's scaling issues for _years_. Far from being "ignorant of the major content of the article", I think my comment in fact echoes the article's admission of exactly the same problems I described. Reproduced here:

> Developer tooling still needs to be built out to enable more user friendly applications. With most still treating BTC as an investment, we’re yet to see broad demand to use it for payments (use of Lightning rails for fiat payments remains a compelling opportunity). Despite progress from infrastructure companies, Lightning is still cumbersome for new users and merchants. Additionally, onboarding low income users in developing countries remains a major challenge to fulfilling the promise of Lightning remittances.

And, somewhat humorously and very tellingly, Coinbase itself calls out its own lack of support for Lightning:

> This article should not be construed as an indication that Coinbase has imminent plans to add support for Lightning. Rather, a few employees at the company simply found its potential compelling enough to research, write, and share.

---

If you "prefer high quality discussion on HN", I "encourage" you to address the substance of my comment, which I will not be updating. Where is Lightning? How can I use it to pay for things I need today? Why are we still talking about solutions to these eminently obvious scaling problems in largely theoretical terms after a decade-plus during which the crypto ecosystem might have focused on solving them, but instead largely went in the opposite direction, toward a model of consumers as marks rather than as first-class users?

As an aside, from a personal (i.e. me) usability perspective, the volatility issue is a way bigger deal than the criminality issue. Even if Lightning works out, if I can't reliably store value in BTC, then it can only really serve as a fiat pipe whose endpoints will doubtless be controlled by fintech rent-seekers analogous to today's monolithic payment processors. It's possible, even likely, that they will be the same rent-seekers.

And all of this is not even touching on the energy usage issue. I've been hearing about alternatives to proof-of-work for years (seems to be a theme here); where are they? Are they even realistic, or are they just a fig leaf for an inconvenient truth about crypto's efficiency? Because if I have a choice between rent-seeking payment processors and rent-seeking payment processors with a vast and ever-growing environmental footprint, I'm going to choose the former.

I said it before, and I will say it again: the crypto ecosystem needs to grow up. If they can be better, and have the will to be better, they need to be better.

Re: Bitcoin Lightning network could disrupt $150B year payment/remittance industry

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sharn't as in "shart".

No. The negative of "shart" is "shart not" which is abbreviated as "sharn't".

I just wanted to say "shart" on the internet as I'm immature.

Re: Bitcoin Lightning network could disrupt $150B year payment/remittance industry

#85
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every proposed crypto use case, there already exists a better solution that does not use crypto currency technology.

Transferring money across countries without the government seizing or controlling it. Can you list what non-cryptocurrency technology provides a better solution for that? There are several countries with permanent or temporary restrictions (I think Russia and Ukraine are recent examples).

If the government decides they want to seize or control it, they can also decide to simply imprison you for attempting to flout these restrictions via cryptocurrency. While that isn't currently happening much (that we know about), it's inevitable this will become a more likely threat as more people attempt to use it for that purpose.

And yes, I am aware that there exist cryptocurrencies that attempt (with varying degrees of success) to prevent the kind of analysis that would make this sort of enforcement possible.

Re: Bitcoin Lightning network could disrupt $150B year payment/remittance industry

#86
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why you are posting so much about something you really don’t understand at all?

I was posting to understand, and people helped me

You sure started out pretty confident. I’m very interested in the intense emotional reactions to crypto currency technology, either immediately dismissive or extreme passion not based on facts.

Re: Bitcoin Lightning network could disrupt $150B year payment/remittance industry

#87

I'm sick of hearing about what crypto "could" do. I used BTC to pay for a few lunches back when transaction fees were in the cents rather than hundreds (?) of dollars or worse, and it was pretty neat, but it's clear today that the crypto ecosystem has largely become a paradise for grifters, scammers, fraudsters, and straight-up criminals, and (more generally) just another way for the rich and sophisticated to get ric…

For every proposed crypto use case, there already exists a better solution that does not use crypto currency technology.

False. Show me a better solution for asserting and verifying proof of ownership for digital media. NFT does it far better than DRM. Also, x-border international money transfer.

Re: Bitcoin Lightning network could disrupt $150B year payment/remittance industry

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every proposed crypto use case, there already exists a better solution that does not use crypto currency technology.

Well, except the illegal ones.

And facilitating "illegal" transactions is a right thing to do when the government is legalizing bad stuff. Shared a lot of examples here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095

Re: Bitcoin Lightning network could disrupt $150B year payment/remittance industry

#89
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every proposed crypto use case, there already exists a better solution that does not use crypto currency technology.

Transferring money across countries without the government seizing or controlling it. Can you list what non-cryptocurrency technology provides a better solution for that? There are several countries with permanent or temporary restrictions (I think Russia and Ukraine are recent examples).

If this is the best use case shouldn’t discussion be promoting crypto designed for this like XLM or XMR, instead of whatever new Ethereum-based project that is most likely a Ponzi scheme?

Re: Bitcoin Lightning network could disrupt $150B year payment/remittance industry

#90
post #56
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Lightning Network is a distributed protocol. Here's a good intro: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/understanding-the-ligh... Technically, Lightning Network is fascinating and quite ingenious. Practically, the blogpost above was written in 2016, so more than 6 years ago, and LN - in my impression - hasn't really taken off yet... I wonder if it's due to its complexity, plus the potential need for watchtower se…

It just seems to me like it allows you to open a secure high speed channel with someone you expect to transact with frequently. That's interesting but most people transact with different people constantly - so unless I want to have an open channel that closes nightly/weekly/monthly with every store I shop at, wouldn't I use a centralized service? How would that be different than opening an account with Paypal, and ev…

What you described is a channel inside the network of nodes. What's great in lightning network is that you can route paths / a flow inside the network made of those channels that you just described trustlessly (not trusting the intermediate nodes either) using some simple but ingeniously designed smart contracts.
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