Google’s caste-bias problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#61

Post by causi » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

spicymaki wrote: post #47

isoprophlex wrote: post #9

As someone doing management in a company that hires many Indian workers, both in on-shore and off-shore teams, this is a highly relevant topic for me. I'm a native western european so I'm likely blind to some extend for these issues. Like the article says, this sounds like harmful class-ism that silences or disadvantages specific groups, but not in an "obviously" racist manner based on skin color. Anyone care to shar…

> but not in an "obviously" racist manner based on skin color. There is plenty of colorism within India too (everywhere in fact). I think you should definitely read about forms of discrimination.

He didn't say there wasn't. He said this, i.e., caste bias, is a form of discrimination that is not made obvious by being based on skin color.

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#62

Post by bee_rider » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

anovikov wrote: post #2

Maybe i'm being ignorant, but why don't you just not work for the company that has few or no Indians? Because other nations of course don't know about which last name means which caste or would ever care about it, you won't be a subject for discrimination. And besides, these places will probably pay better anyway.

I'm all for acknowledging my ignorance and charging forward with a bad idea in technical situations (if nothing else it gives somebody more experienced something to tee up on), but generally I try to avoid it on discrimination issues.

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#63

Post by seventyheads » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

metadaemon wrote: post #43

vsr_pg wrote: post #35

I take no position on the broader issue of the article, but I was shocked to see that Isaac Chotiner (a repeat India-related article writer at New Yorker) failed to mention that Narendra Modi is an OBC in the context of describing the BJP's caste base. Truly, an egregious oversight and one that misleads readers.

What do OBC and BJP stand for?

OBC - Other Backward Class [1]

BJP - Bharatiya Janata Party (the current ruling political party of India)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Backward_Class

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#64

Post by 1sembiyan » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

vsr_pg wrote: post #35

I take no position on the broader issue of the article, but I was shocked to see that Isaac Chotiner (a repeat India-related article writer at New Yorker) failed to mention that Narendra Modi is an OBC in the context of describing the BJP's caste base. Truly, an egregious oversight and one that misleads readers.

He also says

> “The right-wing Hindu movement in India has historically not been associated with people from underprivileged castes, and those people have generally been less supportive of the movement“

My understanding is that BJP has come to power under an OBC wave, both in UP in 2022, and in the North 2019.

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#65

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #37

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saw this at American Express. In many cases, VPs and Directors were actually cousins or even siblings. This was a decade ago. Fast forward to now, and they are at the top of many NYC banks running IT divisions, the same group that worked together so many years ago. Theres an invisible network in many large corporations and none of the jobs are available to employees of those corporations

It seems like you are describing the norm. The prime advice for everyone is networking, networking, networking, isn’t it? And it’s not what you know, but who you know. Going to the right schools to be able to make the right friends, etc.

[deleted]

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#66

Post by jaywalk » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

> The Google spokesperson told The New Yorker, "We made the decision not to move forward with this proposed talk which was pulling employees apart rather than bringing our community together and raising awareness."

If the talk was standard DEI fare (shitting on white men) I'm sure any complaints would have been ignored.

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#67

Post by pc86 » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

We need to stop calling this a "caste-bias problem" and call it what it is: racism. Just because they're not a distinct ethnicity doesn't mean it's not racism, and the people looking down on others because of their caste are no different than the white guy yelling the n word in traffic. Neither should be tolerated, and if you find yourself working with one, they should be fired. It is antithetical to an open society.

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#68

Post by ncr100 » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #57

isoprophlex wrote: post #9

As someone doing management in a company that hires many Indian workers, both in on-shore and off-shore teams, this is a highly relevant topic for me. I'm a native western european so I'm likely blind to some extend for these issues. Like the article says, this sounds like harmful class-ism that silences or disadvantages specific groups, but not in an "obviously" racist manner based on skin color. Anyone care to shar…

[deleted]

Nice.

Yes, "we don't do that here" can work in many situations.

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#69

Post by adharmad » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

metadaemon wrote: post #43

vsr_pg wrote: post #35

I take no position on the broader issue of the article, but I was shocked to see that Isaac Chotiner (a repeat India-related article writer at New Yorker) failed to mention that Narendra Modi is an OBC in the context of describing the BJP's caste base. Truly, an egregious oversight and one that misleads readers.

What do OBC and BJP stand for?

OBC stands for "Other backward classes". It is a caste classification created by the Indian government based on certain criteria of people who are economically/educationally backward but who do not fall under the main backward class group (Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes - SC/ST).

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#70

Post by jrsj » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 2:24 PM UTC

I've also heard rumors about discrimination by Indian managers against non-Indian employees at the largest employers in my city. I'm inclined to believe this is true as I've heard from multiple people who worked there that most of engineering management consists of upper caste Indians now but that group represents a relatively small minority of engineering as a whole.

I wonder if these two things are connected. In some cases is this going beyond just caste discrimination and becoming something like a recreation of a caste system within the company itself? And why are we incapable of even discussing whether or not these things are happening despite them being blatantly illegal?