Don't tie the clove hitch one-handed when working with auto-breaking belay device, that caused fatalities. Use both hands to tie the full knot first, and then clip it in at once:
Essential Climbing Knots
131–140 of 151 posts
Re: Essential Climbing Knots
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which you proceeded to tie into a knot, I presume
Alas no, it was quite a wide ribbon and the licorice didn't quite have the strength. Tasted good though.
Water knot [1] might have worked.
Re: Essential Climbing Knots
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
Preferably a bowline with a stopper knot or a inherently secure bowline like the End Bound Single Bowline (EBSB) or Scott's Locked Bowline
These seem to be more complicated versions of the Yosemite Bowline; do you have any info on that one? It’s been my go-to bowline for all applications (climbing, sailing), yet now I’m wondering whether it has some weakness I don’t know about.
I think the only weakness with Yosemite bowline is if tied wrong. Bowline backed by a double overhand is about as fast to tie and easier to check IMO, but if you are used to Yosemite then maybe it's the opposite for you.
Re: Essential Climbing Knots
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
in the american northeast, backup knots on a figure 8 are relatively common in gyms and rare at the crag. (and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector) About 5-6 years ago the gyms became much more honest in their instruction for new climbers, and will now actually say the quiet part out loud, which is that a backup knot is really there to 1. ensure that new climbers leave enough of a tail on…
I would never trust my safety to a bowline. It comes loose with a minimum of working. Only under constant load would I use it, and only then when double hitched, and probably with a finisher clove hitch. Even my dog gets away from a bowline with a minimum of moving around the front yard.
yes, sorry: i absolutely meant double bowline there. Sloppy.
Re: Essential Climbing Knots
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
And the problem of that is ... ?
Generally without independent testing and certification on a safety critical item, you get a market where there are some well established companies who products unquestionably meet the safety standards. These tend to become rather expensive products, but what many experienced people use, because it is definitely safe. There will be some really cheap stuff sold that absolutely does not meet the safety standards, and n…
"But then you get reasonable priced items from no-name brands that might meet the specs, but nobody really knows, for all they can tell they might just just be unsafe junk just like the cheap stuff."
The need to overengineer things in the sport is quite interesting to me. I personally have tendency to use way more locking devices than my more experienced partners.
And I've replaced a lot of safe gear in my life just so my partners will feel safer.
To be honest, if someone shows up with a pile of mismatched draws and bootied cams I always feel way safer than when they show up with a nice shiny new rack.
One thing that's interesting to me is the difficulty of testing or inspecting things. I know plenty of people who find very old cordage or used gear in general to be sus.
I've tossed out plenty of two-decade old webbing and cordage that are perfectly fine and safe to use, just on the general principle that other folks might find it to be worrisome.
I also find most of the gear to be sanely priced; the reason the cheap stuff is cheap is because it skips an expensive certification process... so it's hard for me to call a $200 rope "overpriced". But then, I have a couple totems and was happy to pay what I had to pay for them.
What a lot of the discussion misses, and one thing I find super interesting, is that every time you climb you're dealing with used gear. And when you climb with a new partner you are often climbing on used gear of an unknown provenance.
The implication of this to me has always been that knowing how to inspect gear (and partners, HA!) and understanding all the real ways things go wrong is way more important and a much better use of my time than trying to get a deal from scoring un-branded gear.
My advice to folks is to read several editions of the AAC's yearly "Accidents in North American Climbing"-- that will tell you a whole lot (wear a helmet, back off sooner rather than later, be conservative when the stakes are higher, the gear itself is almost never the root cause).
Re: Essential Climbing Knots
#136Don't tie the clove hitch one-handed when working with auto-breaking belay device, that caused fatalities. Use both hands to tie the full knot first, and then clip it in at once: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9np7B1Zao4
some of those failure modes when i first saw them were freaky, they were so insidious and easy to do by accident! really glad i came across them, and thanks for sharing!
Re: Essential Climbing Knots
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
in the american northeast, backup knots on a figure 8 are relatively common in gyms and rare at the crag. (and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector) About 5-6 years ago the gyms became much more honest in their instruction for new climbers, and will now actually say the quiet part out loud, which is that a backup knot is really there to 1. ensure that new climbers leave enough of a tail on…
and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector Huh, really? Most of the people I know who tie-in with the figure-8 use the standard overhand safety knot (or they pull the tail back through the bottom loop of the eight). Most of us have been climbing for decades. I guess old habits die hard?
they do.
maybe excessively long tails are a better sign…
Re: Essential Climbing Knots
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
A bowline with stopper is a pretty common climbing knot in the UK [0]. I don't have the expertise to weigh into any debates about how safe it is, but I've seen a lot of people use it without incident, and there's no question it's easier to untie than a rethreaded figure-eight. [0] https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/how_to_tie_in_to_...
Also, Adam Ondra routinely climbs using this tie-in method for the reasons you mention.
The yosemite variant is fine, but maybe we shouldn't take the world's best climber as a reference who has a lot more context and experience to make very measured tradeoffs:
> IMPORTANT: This knot is methodically NOT recommended and yes, it MAY untie while you are climbing. It can happen if your rope is new-ish (and that means it slides easily) and if you don’t tighten the knot with a lot of force. I am always splashing chalk on the knot in case of new rope to increase the friction and I do tighten it with a lot of force. The reasonable and recommended alternative, pretty common and very safe is double bowline. It is almost as big as eight, but at least it is always easy to untie.
https://adamondra.com/updates/my-climbing-more-about-feeling...
Re: Essential Climbing Knots
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
I rarely see people tying in with a single bowline, for the reason you give. I've been using a double bowline with a stopper knot ( http://www.vdiffclimbing.com/double-bowline/ ) for many years now (well, at least outside of the climbing gym). I've never had an issue with the knot loosening when not under load. The usual complaint I hear from people about using it to tie-in is that it is harder for your partner to vi…
Yep, that double bowline with stopper is what I was referring to. Trouble is, it is now almost as challenging to tie as the fig-8 loop / trace.
a usual reason to use it outdoors is that it’s easier to untie than a figure 8 when the rope is dirty or frozen or you were whipping on it for hours.
Re: Essential Climbing Knots
#140Don't tie the clove hitch one-handed when working with auto-breaking belay device, that caused fatalities. Use both hands to tie the full knot first, and then clip it in at once: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9np7B1Zao4
Worth noting there is a good way for one-handed clove hitch in the air:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8qSoIY6FPc
With some practice it's very effective, fast and don't require to watch at the rope.