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Essential Climbing Knots

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Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#111
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the time of your reply I assume you're also in Europe or at least not in the Americas. You are spot on in your guess. Colleagues and friends over the pond don't use the EDK for abseiling or rappelling as they say. Also, not sure how the name was picked-up, but that's just plain bad marketing putting Death in the name :)

The etymology behind the name isn't known, it is thought that the name is from Americans. FWIW, it is a bend. While all bends are knots, not all knots are bends. So the EDK name really leaves a lot to wish for.

And then there's the BFK! Which is an EDK on a basically double bight. My knot for choice when TRS'ing.

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#113

Random comment: Securing the trace eight with a second knot is really not necessary, as it is a self tightening knot. Most climbers don't do it, my climbing safety book doesn't show it and all gyms I've been too, sans one in Vancouver WA for some reason, don't require it. Rough rule is two fists length for the tail and you're good. Another comment mentioned this too, it's much easier to untie if tied in a specific wa…

If you clean a figure 8 really well, it's just as easy to untie after a whip as a bowline (okay, maybe not just as easy, but very close), and much much more universal for your partner to inspect. The process I follow to ensure a clean knot every time: 1. Tie your figure 8, with the tail the same size every time (use your body as a ruler, testing a few lengths to get the perfect size) 2. Pass the tail up through your…

I just learned this from watching Hard is Easy on YouTube. And I've been climbing for 10 years!

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#114
post #104

I did a lot of bouldering and wanted to start doing lead climbing, until I learned that there's no independent certification for ropes.

And the problem of that is ... ?

Generally without independent testing and certification on a safety critical item, you get a market where there are some well established companies who products unquestionably meet the safety standards. These tend to become rather expensive products, but what many experienced people use, because it is definitely safe.

There will be some really cheap stuff sold that absolutely does not meet the safety standards, and nobody with much common sense will trust or use these products.

But then you get reasonable priced items from no-name brands that might meet the specs, but nobody really knows, for all they can tell they might just just be unsafe junk just like the cheap stuff.

Since your life may quite literally depend on whether the product meets the safety specifications, is it worth going for the sanely priced stuff, not knowing if it is really safe, or pay for the overpriced stuff everybody knows is safe? If you ask somebody knowledgeable about the field, all they can can do is recommend the overpriced stuff.

Whereas if there was independent testing and certification, the knowledgeable people could tell you that it is fine to get any product certified by , if money is not a significant concern, you can go for the trusted expensive but well established brands, but if your budget is tighter, the cheaper certified stuff is still fine, and won't kill you, but might have other minor downsides like not looking as nice, weighing more than the higher end stuff, etc.

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#115

Random comment: Securing the trace eight with a second knot is really not necessary, as it is a self tightening knot. Most climbers don't do it, my climbing safety book doesn't show it and all gyms I've been too, sans one in Vancouver WA for some reason, don't require it. Rough rule is two fists length for the tail and you're good. Another comment mentioned this too, it's much easier to untie if tied in a specific wa…

in the american northeast, backup knots on a figure 8 are relatively common in gyms and rare at the crag. (and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector) About 5-6 years ago the gyms became much more honest in their instruction for new climbers, and will now actually say the quiet part out loud, which is that a backup knot is really there to 1. ensure that new climbers leave enough of a tail on…

I would never trust my safety to a bowline. It comes loose with a minimum of working. Only under constant load would I use it, and only then when double hitched, and probably with a finisher clove hitch.

Even my dog gets away from a bowline with a minimum of moving around the front yard.

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#116

I did a lot of bouldering and wanted to start doing lead climbing, until I learned that there's no independent certification for ropes.

Well, there is the UIAA, CE and CN.... but even if that weren't the general issues with rope are it being cut due to rockfall (which I have experienced and been terrified by) or due to repeatedly grinding over an edge. The ropes in climbing are way safer than many aspects of the sport. The thing that gives me pause over the last couple of years has been wondering about how picky I should be about partners. Human erro…

second that... the climbing partner/belayer is very important

as for ropes.. just by from the "big" companies, beal, tendon, edelrid, mammut, pezel, they're all certified by the UIAA, just be careful and buy a "single rope" and not a half rope or a twin rope... oh.. and I recommend doing a course in your local climbing gym first for lead :)

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#117
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the problem of that is ... ?

Generally without independent testing and certification on a safety critical item, you get a market where there are some well established companies who products unquestionably meet the safety standards. These tend to become rather expensive products, but what many experienced people use, because it is definitely safe. There will be some really cheap stuff sold that absolutely does not meet the safety standards, and n…

as another poster already pointed out, most brands are certified by the UIAA

the stuff to look for: ropes (EN 892:+A1:2016) in Europe carabiners/express sets: EN 12275: 2013, UIAA 121: 2018 "schlingen" (don't know the english word) for express sets: EN 566: 2017 belay devices: DIN EN 15151-1 , DIN EN 15151-2 (UIAA standard)

if you're in europe and want to buy a bit cheaper try decathlon, they have decent stuff from their inhouse brand "simond" and everything is certified and safe.

Otherwise.. just by from a decent brand, the stuff is safety critical.. so I personally would not cut cost with the gear :)

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in the american northeast, backup knots on a figure 8 are relatively common in gyms and rare at the crag. (and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector) About 5-6 years ago the gyms became much more honest in their instruction for new climbers, and will now actually say the quiet part out loud, which is that a backup knot is really there to 1. ensure that new climbers leave enough of a tail on…

I would never trust my safety to a bowline. It comes loose with a minimum of working. Only under constant load would I use it, and only then when double hitched, and probably with a finisher clove hitch. Even my dog gets away from a bowline with a minimum of moving around the front yard.

I rarely see people tying in with a single bowline, for the reason you give. I've been using a double bowline with a stopper knot (http://www.vdiffclimbing.com/double-bowline/) for many years now (well, at least outside of the climbing gym). I've never had an issue with the knot loosening when not under load. The usual complaint I hear from people about using it to tie-in is that it is harder for your partner to visually verify. The figure-8 follow-through is very easy to visually check.

ETA: The last person I saw tie-in with a single bowline was Christian Griffith (of Verve fame) using it to tie-back in after cleaning the anchors of a warm-up in the Ruckman Cave at Rifle Mountain Park. He also didn't secure the rope whe he untied to thread the anchors, choosing instead to just step on it. Not exactly a great example of anchor safety...

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#119

Random comment: Securing the trace eight with a second knot is really not necessary, as it is a self tightening knot. Most climbers don't do it, my climbing safety book doesn't show it and all gyms I've been too, sans one in Vancouver WA for some reason, don't require it. Rough rule is two fists length for the tail and you're good. Another comment mentioned this too, it's much easier to untie if tied in a specific wa…

in the american northeast, backup knots on a figure 8 are relatively common in gyms and rare at the crag. (and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector) About 5-6 years ago the gyms became much more honest in their instruction for new climbers, and will now actually say the quiet part out loud, which is that a backup knot is really there to 1. ensure that new climbers leave enough of a tail on…

and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector

Huh, really? Most of the people I know who tie-in with the figure-8 use the standard overhand safety knot (or they pull the tail back through the bottom loop of the eight). Most of us have been climbing for decades. I guess old habits die hard?

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#120
post #66
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a loop knot made using a figure-8, then retracing the knot with the tail. Climbers use it where sailors would tend to use a bowline. I've heard various reasons why: "it's easier to teach people in the gym", "it's harder to get wrong", "the dynamic ropes climbers use put bowlines at risk of capsizing".

Nobody does a bowline, that's insane because you can't ring-load (cross-load) it. [0] Europeans sometimes do the double bowline (traced), but the naming is ambiguous in english, so you have to google double bowline on a bight. Americans used to do yosemite bowlines, but that fell out of fashion because figure eight (safe and foolproof) and double bowline (safe, trivial to untie after hefty lead falls) cover literally…

I've been using a double bowline with the Yosemite-style stopper for a long time (I've also heard it referred to a Jack's bend, but I can't find anything quickly to confirm that). Some people give me a hard time about using a double bowline, saying it is "unsafe," but their reason usually boils down to "it's hard to visually inspect." My belay partners (very small list, because I don't let just anyone belay me on lead) typically remind me to re-check my knot just before I leave the ground.
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