Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall • Hacker News Board

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

#151

Post by ozim » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 3:54 PM UTC

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #137

ozim wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is false dichotomy that is running around. To really understand something first you blindly memorize - but that is not enough, once you do examples and exercises using what you blindly memorized you get to understand things quicker, a lot quicker. Not memorizing stuff and figuring things as you go is mostly recipe for disappointment. Like in chess - people think that chess players are somehow super intelligent -…

You are making a very important assumption that doesn't hold in most situations. Chess and math are regular domains. They are bounded. There is right and wrong. Most domains are not like this. Ex: art, software engineering, investing, etc. You can't memorize your way to understanding in an irregular domain. It also doesn't tend to do well in non-knowledge work domains. Ex: sports.

I disagree becuse rote repetition is the only way to learn how to draw. One cannot simply draw something complex without trying out again and again to draw something.

For sports rote repetition is basis to excel or at least getting good at any sport.

I agree one cannot "memorize to understanding" because one has to actually apply what he memorized in practice.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

#152

Post by gofreddygo » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

snowpiercer wrote: post #29

dls2016 wrote: post #17

I was anti-memorization until I went back to graduate school for mathematics. I had forgotten (or never learned) a lot of things needed to pass qualifying exams. At some point I ran across the spaced repetition idea (maybe from the Wired SuperMemo article [0]) and I gave it a try. I ended up using it to memorize large portions of baby Rudin and Munkres' Topology, as well as some algebra and a bunch of qualifying exam…

Don't you think you actually did well in your exams because you really understood it and not because you blindly memorized it ?

"really understood" is ambiguous.

"solve ___ on a blank piece of paper" is not.

Human brains drop unused stuff especially ones that dont fit a known pattern.

No Real understanding without repetition. Repetition breeds memorization.

One without the other is fooling yourself either way.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

#153

Post by chadlavi » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 5:31 PM UTC

pwpw wrote: post #149

chadlavi wrote: post #148

Anyone recommend an iOS app for this? There are a ton of kinda sketchy looking ones in the App Store.

AnkiMobile Flashcards. Unfortunately it's $25, but the price is well worth it. I've learned Greek using Anki. If you ever move to Android, the app is free and open source, and I've contributed code to it!

Thanks!

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

#154

Post by t_mann » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

dls2016 wrote: post #17

I was anti-memorization until I went back to graduate school for mathematics. I had forgotten (or never learned) a lot of things needed to pass qualifying exams. At some point I ran across the spaced repetition idea (maybe from the Wired SuperMemo article [0]) and I gave it a try. I ended up using it to memorize large portions of baby Rudin and Munkres' Topology, as well as some algebra and a bunch of qualifying exam…

In grad school it seems obvious what you want to retain, after that it can become a bit trickier to make the choice. General question for everyone using this approach: how do you go about selecting topics to put into your SR schedule?

I mean there are so many things that would be good to remember: math problems and leetcode are actually continuously relevant if you're in employment and ever thinking about moving jobs, software engineering tools that are important for daily work (those are changing so fast in some cases that I'm wondering again how much is worth committing to long-term memory), maybe there are some academic fields where you want to stay up-to-date on the research, all sorts of life hacks in the household / cooking / DIY space, literally everything about your family life, maybe some strategies in hobbies (just recently got into speedcubing, which is a lot about algorithm memorization),...

Maybe the problem is just that I have too much of a "finite memory" mindset and we can easily remember all of those, lol.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

#155

Post by jquery » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #13

jacb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha! Certainly none of us will get anywhere close to this bound, no matter how much time we log in Anki. But the OP asked "Would an infinitely-long-lived, but forgetful person be able to recall an infinite number of facts using this method?", and the answer is a surprising "no, you turn into a black hole".

Sometimes even just one piece of knowledge can turn you into a black hole. It’s why nobody remembers every digit of Graham’s (phone) number. ;)

his phone number is highly compressible though, it’s the decompression/serialization step that turns you into a black hole

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

#156

Post by borroka » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

t_mann wrote: post #154

dls2016 wrote: post #17

I was anti-memorization until I went back to graduate school for mathematics. I had forgotten (or never learned) a lot of things needed to pass qualifying exams. At some point I ran across the spaced repetition idea (maybe from the Wired SuperMemo article [0]) and I gave it a try. I ended up using it to memorize large portions of baby Rudin and Munkres' Topology, as well as some algebra and a bunch of qualifying exam…

In grad school it seems obvious what you want to retain, after that it can become a bit trickier to make the choice. General question for everyone using this approach: how do you go about selecting topics to put into your SR schedule? I mean there are so many things that would be good to remember: math problems and leetcode are actually continuously relevant if you're in employment and ever thinking about moving jobs…

The problem is quickly solved, and it is important not to fall into " paralysis by analysis." Sometimes, while writing a card, we tell ourselves that it is not so important to remember that information and discard it, other times we discard it when during the review process we sense or realize that we are not interested in remembering that information .

Assuming that there is some sort of logic behind the decisions made, I recommend using the same strategy that Napoleon is said to have used in his campaigns: first we start, then we will see.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

#157

Post by LittleFishyChan » Wed, Aug 10, 2022, 3:13 AM UTC

jerf wrote: post #8

jacb wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than semi-fallacious - the math doesn't add up, because you run into the Bekenstein bound, which limits how much information you can pack into a volume.

This is why I don't use spaced repetition. The danger of becoming a black hole is just too high. Forgetting things is well known to be highly evolutionary advantageous, because all the critters that remember everything and turned into black holes stopped reproducing. Very dangerous stuff to play with.

I guess I’m the extreme case then; I’ve been using SuperMemo for 16 years, every single day; originally it was to memorize foreign language vocabulary words, but has since expanded to everything I want to know. Left unchecked you’re right, you can easily become obsessed with memorizing junk knowledge and becoming like the comic book guy from the Simpson’s. But over time it has helped me learn how to “compact” complicated ideas into simple statements and more easily internalize new ideas. Since I’ve been using SuperMemo to remember concepts, metaphors and illustrations kind of just “appear” in my brain. I don’t fully understand why, I think it’s like lightning striking a place with lots of metal; you can’t force it to happen, but you can make the conditions conducive to “lightning strikes” of inspiration.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

#158

Post by t_mann » Wed, Aug 10, 2022, 7:54 AM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #7

This is false if memory's are stored physically in the brain. Unless there is an increase in brain volume, this process will eventually hit the Bekenstein bound. I don't care if the upper bound is "effectively infinite," that's not what the proof claimed.

What you're missing is that the proof only shows that memory diverges as time goes to infinity. According to the laws derived there, a finitely-lived human would have a finite memory throughout their entire lifespan. You could even use the law to derive the upper limit on how many facts can be memorized over an X year lifespan (which sounds quite antithetical to the headline, which you seem to have reacted to).

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

#159

Post by mfru » Wed, Aug 10, 2022, 9:51 AM UTC

orangepurple wrote: post #60

TremendousJudge wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If actually using it has this huge friction, how do you manage to use it every day? I always have a hard time creating habits out things that are hard to "start" doing every time.

I don't. I developed my own spaced repetition software from first principles based on the latest research :D

I am also very interested, are you planning on open-sourcing / selling it?

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

#160

Post by examplary_cable » Wed, Aug 10, 2022, 9:53 AM UTC

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #54

xkfm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That Supermemo article in Wired hooked me. I still remember where I was when I read it and the feeling of reading it. I still use Supermemo daily, and it's one of the programs keeping on Windows. Anki (and every other SRS program I've tried) just doesn't compare as soon as you move beyond a list of flashcards. That said, having used Supermemo for over a decade at this point, the hardest thing about SRS is deciding wh…

Yeah I agree. Anki has a failure mode for me that I eventually accumulate > 5000 flash cards and a review session can take an hour or more. Knowing what to review is really difficult. I'll give Supermemo a shot, I've always heard of it as the gold standard but never tried it.

I believe this will fit in here:

I'm working on a program that solves this problem: we don't have mandatory daily reviews and we also have a Spaced Repetition Algorithm for reviews. Also it's much more flexible than Anki & Supermemo. So you don't have to stress over as to complete the daily grind.

https://github.com/ilse-langnar/notebook