Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 85 posts

Re: California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

#71

Post by misiti3780 »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #68
acdha wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absurdity of that point becomes obvious when you look at it from a business perspective: Tesla’s marketing department wants that there because it sounds better than what their competitors offer. They wouldn’t make it so prominent if they didn’t want you to take exactly that impression.

Buying FSD now is really just buying a promise that FSD will be delivered in the future. Whether Tesla will actually achieve FSD is debatable. Personally, I think they will. Yes, even with vision-only. It's going to be several more years, but I think they'll get there eventually. But what do you call it when you're selling that feature to customers today ?

who cares what they call it. if you buy a software package thinking it's fsd in 2022 with zero research, it's on you. i feel like half the downvoters in this chain are fighting the good fight for .00001% of tesla owners, who happen to be some of the dumbest consumers on planet earth.

Re: California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

#72

Post by acdha »

misiti3780 wrote: post #71
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying FSD now is really just buying a promise that FSD will be delivered in the future. Whether Tesla will actually achieve FSD is debatable. Personally, I think they will. Yes, even with vision-only. It's going to be several more years, but I think they'll get there eventually. But what do you call it when you're selling that feature to customers today ?

who cares what they call it. if you buy a software package thinking it's fsd in 2022 with zero research, it's on you. i feel like half the downvoters in this chain are fighting the good fight for .00001% of tesla owners, who happen to be some of the dumbest consumers on planet earth.

Do you think all Tesla buyers are skilled software engineers or ML researchers? I guarantee you that a lot of people believed Tesla’s and especially Elon’s claims that this was right around the corner, and don’t have the appropriate experience to understand that there are multiple fundamental improvements needed before this will actually deliver. I know multiple people who are quite smart but didn’t have the experience to understand that it’s not like, say, buying a game at launch expecting it to be patched in a few months but more like a bunch of people doing Ph.D-level research which likely won’t ship in the life of their car.

Re: California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

#73

Post by v0idzer0 »

culi wrote: post #20

Before Tesla came out with autopilot, Google had done extensive user research on "autopilot" cars and found that no matter how many times you tell users that they must be fully attentive, people WILL go on their phones or stop paying attention. It's the entire reason Google didn't go to market with their technology before Tesla Then Musk came along and completely ignored the research (which he must've been really awa…

Nobody thinks its okay for the pilot to take a nap on their flight despite the term autopilot originating from flight software. The reality is people just don’t fear or respect driving the way they should. But how many millions of people have died because they text and drive without autopilot? Or drive drunk without autopilot? Do alcohol companies have blood on their hands? Bars? Cellphone makers like Apple and Google? What about the people who let google maps instruct them to drive off cliffs or into rivers? Does google have blood on their hands?

Re: California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

#74

Post by v0idzer0 »

belkinpower wrote: post #25
misiti3780 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it fraudulent - they dont claim to be selling L5 FSD?

Words have meanings. If you call something “full self-driving” you can’t get upset when people assume it means full self-driving.

But you can get upset when people ignore the numerous warnings from the car which beeps at you if you take your hands off the wheel or look away from the road for too long. I find I drive better with it, because the car literally forces me to pay attention.

Re: California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

#75

Post by misiti3780 »

acdha wrote: post #72
misiti3780 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

who cares what they call it. if you buy a software package thinking it's fsd in 2022 with zero research, it's on you. i feel like half the downvoters in this chain are fighting the good fight for .00001% of tesla owners, who happen to be some of the dumbest consumers on planet earth.

Do you think all Tesla buyers are skilled software engineers or ML researchers? I guarantee you that a lot of people believed Tesla’s and especially Elon’s claims that this was right around the corner, and don’t have the appropriate experience to understand that there are multiple fundamental improvements needed before this will actually deliver. I know multiple people who are quite smart but didn’t have the experien…

how do you need a PhD to google "Tesla FSD" on youtube and watch some videos. Your claim is ridiculous.

Re: California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

#76

Post by v0idzer0 »

pessimizer wrote: post #27
inversefft wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I checked drivers are still required to be licensed and understand the functionality of their cars.

They've incorporated the best practices for managing the limitations of Tesla's autopilot into driving tests now? Glad to hear it.

No but they actually should. And every company either already has or is near an equivalent, so it makes sense to train drivers on what will soon be ubiquitous car software. Remember the goal here is to make driving safer. And there’s no evidence Teslas System isn’t doing that. People crash and die without autopilot every single day.

Re: California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

#77

Post by acdha »

misiti3780 wrote: post #75
acdha wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think all Tesla buyers are skilled software engineers or ML researchers? I guarantee you that a lot of people believed Tesla’s and especially Elon’s claims that this was right around the corner, and don’t have the appropriate experience to understand that there are multiple fundamental improvements needed before this will actually deliver. I know multiple people who are quite smart but didn’t have the experien…

how do you need a PhD to google "Tesla FSD" on youtube and watch some videos. Your claim is ridiculous.

Keep going: you do that, and you find a Tesla fanboy’s reaction saying the problems are overblown and will be fixed soon with a software update. Who’s right?

Being able to answer that confidently requires some understanding of the problem domain which not everyone has. This is especially true for these big claims where people might think that a large company wouldn’t rationally make claims like this which would expose them to liability unless it really was almost done, not realizing the degree to which Elon will in fact take that risk just to cast himself as the hero of a 90s sci-fi novel’s back story.

Re: California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

#78

Post by v0idzer0 »

gamblor956 wrote: post #49
chmod600 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Teslas more lethal per mile than other cars?

Yes. With 21 known fatalities in the U.S. alone, Tesla has more advanced driving system deaths than every other carmaker in the world, combined. (For the record, the combined total for every other manufacturer is 1: the Uber pedestrian fatality that doomed Uber's self-driving program.)

Okay, but entirely meaningless unless you adjust for miles driven with an advanced driving system. More people are killed with pistols than assault rifles. Are pistols more deadly?

Re: California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

#79

Post by washbrain »

panick21_ wrote: post #58
adoxyz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol if you look at any Tesla forums, this is still very much the case with all cars they make. The refreshed Model X seems to be hot garbage from a quality control stand point.

Tesla forum is literally the perfect example of selection bias.

Except it's not. If there were no defects, there would be no defects reported on the forums. The number of cars sold is public.

The parent isn't suggesting looking at the ratio of happy and sad posters, which would definitely be selection bias, they are saying look at the rate and severity of complaints on it's own.

Re: California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

#80

Post by panick21_ »

washbrain wrote: post #79
panick21_ wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla forum is literally the perfect example of selection bias.

Except it's not. If there were no defects, there would be no defects reported on the forums. The number of cars sold is public. The parent isn't suggesting looking at the ratio of happy and sad posters, which would definitely be selection bias, they are saying look at the rate and severity of complaints on it's own.

If you have a defect you are about 1000x more likely to go to the forum.

Of course there are defects, at that volume that would be expected.

Parent didn't say anything about rates.

Post reply on HN