Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret • Hacker News Board

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#331

Post by exodust » Mon, Aug 08, 2022, 5:09 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #243

exodust wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just go for a run? You don't need to "get directions" or "track speed"... you're running not driving. If someone calls you when you're out running, call them back when you get home!

I had a Garmin GPS watch for running a decade ago. Of course because of the technology at the time, it was a lot larger. Even back then I used it to track my pace when I was running. Also heart rate based training isn’t a new concept. Neither is running to music. I’m running much shorter distances now - because age. But the only thing that made running half marathons tolerable was music.

Fair enough. So we have no choice but to buy all these products that deny right to repair, and/or make it difficult to keep for longer than the manufacturer's imposed artificial lifespan.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#332

Post by nikau » Mon, Aug 08, 2022, 7:38 AM UTC

jen20 wrote: post #289

nikau wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dyson are the worst, their BMS is terrible and just disables the pack with minimal cell voltage variation.

As much as I dislike Dyson (the man), the batteries are nothing to complain about. I have two cordless vacuums from 6 and 10 years respectively, both working fine with their original batteries, and with replacements trivially available and replaceable.

respectfully disagree:

https://github.com/tinfever/FU-Dyson-BMS

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#333

Post by eternityforest » Mon, Aug 08, 2022, 7:54 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #324

eternityforest wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yeah, laws are supposed to generally follow the will of the people as much as possible without seriously harming minority groups. But without the regulation, the trust wouldn't be there, and people would use imported formula, and likely occasionally get contaminated stuff from fly by night vendors. Grocery stores would probably refuse to stock the poison in some cases, but there might be more subtle contaminatio…

> [...] there still seems to be cases of doing the legal minimum even when it's not enough to be safe. But even more cases of companies going above and beyond the legal minimum, and customers who care will buy from those companies. Eg it's perfectly legal to sell furniture with drawers that can catch and hurt the fingers of toddlers. But it's also perfectly possible to buy furniture that doesn't have this problem. (Y…

The availability of tables that go beyond the minimum doesn't mean much to those who can't afford them.

I would imagine that at least kids furniture does have some fairly heavy regulations, and all furniture probably has some fire resistance laws or something.

Availability of tables with sharp corners becomes an issue when it starts affecting economies of scale. If some safety thing costs a few cents but for whatever reason is not available on the cheapest version, the market might or might not solve that, and the safer versions could be expensive for years to come.

Regulations aren't there to protect middle class people doing their research. They're to protect the weakest and most vulnerable who don't have time to research or money to buy anything better.

They're also to protect people who didn't choose furniture, like guests. It's about making an overall safer world.

Some level of balance is needed, but there are some things that most people are probably better off if they just don't exist, like a lamp that catches fire or baby formula that is made without strict controls, or cars without whatever the current modern safety assistance standard is based on the best evidence available.

A quick google shows that childrens products are in fact regulated by CSPC and can't have sharp stuff, among other requirements.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#334

Post by eru » Mon, Aug 08, 2022, 11:04 AM UTC

eternityforest wrote: post #333

eru wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] there still seems to be cases of doing the legal minimum even when it's not enough to be safe. But even more cases of companies going above and beyond the legal minimum, and customers who care will buy from those companies. Eg it's perfectly legal to sell furniture with drawers that can catch and hurt the fingers of toddlers. But it's also perfectly possible to buy furniture that doesn't have this problem. (Y…

The availability of tables that go beyond the minimum doesn't mean much to those who can't afford them. I would imagine that at least kids furniture does have some fairly heavy regulations, and all furniture probably has some fire resistance laws or something. Availability of tables with sharp corners becomes an issue when it starts affecting economies of scale. If some safety thing costs a few cents but for whatever…

It seems like you are saying that only if we ban cheap and mediocre products, everyone will get good products?

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#335

Post by SergeAx » Mon, Aug 08, 2022, 12:55 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #282

SergeAx wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got myself Pinephone (not Pro) in December 2021. It was mostly unusable but very basic functions (make calls, send/receive SMS) out of the box at the time. Telegram client was very slow, Firefox had screen size problems, notifications were a mess. I think I should've tried to install another OS/env image, but alas I had no time for it. It was a nice try though, and I was impressed how far things got in mobile Linux…

I'm using Pinephone with Mobian as a daily driver. Installing Mobian is as simple as writing iso to a microSD card and inserting it. Telegram and Firefox are somewhat slow but generally work reliably. Noscript helps a lot.

Maybe I have to give Mobian a try, thank you!

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#336

Post by scarface74 » Mon, Aug 08, 2022, 2:28 PM UTC

exodust wrote: post #331

scarface74 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a Garmin GPS watch for running a decade ago. Of course because of the technology at the time, it was a lot larger. Even back then I used it to track my pace when I was running. Also heart rate based training isn’t a new concept. Neither is running to music. I’m running much shorter distances now - because age. But the only thing that made running half marathons tolerable was music.

Fair enough. So we have no choice but to buy all these products that deny right to repair, and/or make it difficult to keep for longer than the manufacturer's imposed artificial lifespan.

Let’s say I could easily replace the battery in my old iPhone 4s. What good would it do me when none of the cellular carriers support it?

My Apple Watch 3rd Gen also has a cell phone chip that one day will be obsolete. While the cellular version of the 3rd Gen Watch has 16GB of memory, the non cell version has 8GB and is already struggling with operating system updates.

As far as AirPods, if you have seen the tear down, it’s mostly a huge battery. Throwing away the battery and keeping the rest wouldn’t cut down on ewaste meaningfully even at scale.

Even if I could replace the battery of an x86 Mac easily, why would I want a laptop that sounds like a freight train when I open a few Chrome tabs, gets hot, has horrible battery life and is still slower than an M1 MacBook Air for $999 that beats it on all measures?

But let’s get back to the Garmin GPS watch example. Have you seen how big and bulky those things are compared to an Apple Watch. Do you think I would want to use that in 2022? I had to use a separate chest band to measure my heart rate. Now it’s built into the watch.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#337

Post by scarface74 » Mon, Aug 08, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

bandie91 wrote: post #317

scarface74 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, analog watches don’t allow me to leave my phone at home when I go for a run and let me listen to music, take phone calls, get directions, track my speed, etc.

my analog watch does not prevent my to leave my phone at home :) tbh, it can not prevent me from doing anything, it's just there ticking…

How can I measure my heart rate with it while I’m running? How can I do pace training? When I’m walking in a city I don’t want to take my $1200 iPhone out while I’m trying to find directions. I can just glance down at my watch.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#338

Post by deltasevennine » Mon, Aug 08, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

what-imright wrote: post #320

deltasevennine wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple learned that having products with planned obsolescence was bad for business and just stopped doing it. This is False. Apple is one of the companies that completely buys into planned obsolescence. They never stopped doing it. They still do it and they practically invented it for iphones and ipads. If other phone companies are doing planned obsolescence then they most likely learned it from apple. Apple is one o…

You cite no evidence. I have the opposite experience first hand. Phone manufactures have been copying Apple since the iPhone because they have no sense of innovation whatsoever. The batteries are cheaply replaceable, just not as easily. But your average Jo doesn't want to take a class in watchmaking to change a phone battery, he’ll work an extra shift and drop it at the Apple store. No people aren’t irrational in gro…

>These are transient objects for humans passing through their years. A useful novelty, a pleasant experience, that’s all they want.

There is huge drive to position the products in this way. Consumers including you are manipulated to think this way for products that traditionally aren't thought of this way. It has become so ingrained that you can't tell the difference.

>You cite no evidence.

https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/01/apple-lawsuit-portugal-planne...

https://www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/apples-planned-obso...

https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/04/08/apple-to-pay-34m-...

https://nypost.com/2021/12/02/apple-may-soon-kill-off-older-...

https://www.idropnews.com/news/spanish-consumer-protection-g...

https://wccftech.com/apple-iphone-6-planned-obsolescence-thr...

https://www.makeuseof.com/apple-faces-750m-lawsuit-throttlin...

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-244-apples-pla...

https://lawstreetmedia.com/news/tech/apple-receives-planned-...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42615378

https://www.icmrindia.org/casestudies/catalogue/Business%20E...

https://actions.sumofus.org/a/planned-obsolescence-is-why-ap...

https://dailytargum.com/article/2019/09/iphones-and-planned-...

https://durabilitymatters.com/planned-obsolescence/

https://www.shacknews.com/article/123046/apple-faces-new-law...

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4134160-apples-planned-obso...

https://dailycampus.com/2022/03/28/dull-and-new-the-truth-be...

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/22/16807056/apple-slow-iphone-ba...

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN29U1BB

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/353685307_FROM_PLAN...

https://www.euroconsumers.org/activities/stop-planned-obsole...

https://www.howtogeek.com/681577/how-to-claim-your-cash-from...

https://undergradlawreview.blog.fordham.edu/consumer-protect...

https://www.europastar.com/news/1004088006-tech-trend-thursd...

https://thehustle.co/why-your-iphone-only-lasts-two-years-ma...

https://www.wallstreetmojo.com/planned-obsolescence/ (defines planned obsolescence. first example is apple)

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Professionalism/Apple,_iPhone_...

If you would like more please let me know.

Also you know that video I sent you about the light bulbs? That was just the first part. The Video is about planned obsolescence in general and it talks about APPLE. Watch the whole thing.

> I have the opposite experience first hand.

Oh wow, Ok you win the debate.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#339

Post by gwbas1c » Mon, Aug 08, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

picture wrote: post #161

gwbas1c wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding sealed: Does the light really outlast the battery? I have some LED lights that have lasted "forever," but my aquarium lights don't seem as durable and I think only will last 5-7 years. (Fluorescent bulbs only lasted a year, and each bulb cost almost as much as an LED version.)

I don't have any good references to cite but from my understanding, well designed LED systems only get dimmer over time (quite reasonably slowly) due to various semiconductor physics. However, by far the most common failure mode for electronics including LEDs is shock and fatigue to the interconnect. This means if you let your LED thermal cycle repeatedly, even to well below datasheet maximums, the solder and bonding…

> I'm not sure how your aquarium lights are configured ... but honestly 5-7 years is already quite impressive.

I go through about 1 power brick a year. I got a wire wet in the original one, and I can't seem to find ones that last long. They always run hot.

I just changed a relay yesterday. My smart switch doesn't output clean voltage or do clean off; so I have it drive a 120VAC relay. Could have been my wiring, though. It's an industrial relay, so I don't see why it'd fail after ~1500 cycles.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#340

Post by what-imright » Mon, Aug 08, 2022, 6:06 PM UTC

deltasevennine wrote: post #338

what-imright wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cite no evidence. I have the opposite experience first hand. Phone manufactures have been copying Apple since the iPhone because they have no sense of innovation whatsoever. The batteries are cheaply replaceable, just not as easily. But your average Jo doesn't want to take a class in watchmaking to change a phone battery, he’ll work an extra shift and drop it at the Apple store. No people aren’t irrational in gro…

>These are transient objects for humans passing through their years. A useful novelty, a pleasant experience, that’s all they want. There is huge drive to position the products in this way. Consumers including you are manipulated to think this way for products that traditionally aren't thought of this way. It has become so ingrained that you can't tell the difference. >You cite no evidence. https://9to5mac.com/2021/0…

So what if it is true? Let’s take Apple’s flagship product the MacBook Pro @ $2500 USD. Now assuming a five year service that’s $500 a year, perfectly reasonable for a daily driver. What is that $1.35 per day. You want to benefit from this technology you’re going to need to compensate the people who design build and maintain it. They could easily charge an order of magnitude more to professionals.

I mean where did this fantasy come from that you’d benefit from hundreds of years of work for a couple thousand bucks? And that it would last forever and be maintained and updated by the manufacturer forevermore? What is this utopian dream you’ve dreamt up? Why don’t you take a pile of sand and a pool of oil and a lump of aluminum and go make your very own laptop? Oh right, you can’t do it without other people.