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Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

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Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#161

Post by picture »

gwbas1c wrote: post #123
clumsysmurf wrote: post #4

I have been a long time enthusiast of high power flashlights. We typically use 18350, 18650, 21700, or 26650. But I have been in dismay as even in this community, companies are starting to move away from these standards and provide proprietary batteries (Olight) or sealed (some newer Fenix models). It would be good if * We could safely obtain reputable Li-ion batteries from reputable sources. I trust a handful of com…

Regarding sealed: Does the light really outlast the battery? I have some LED lights that have lasted "forever," but my aquarium lights don't seem as durable and I think only will last 5-7 years. (Fluorescent bulbs only lasted a year, and each bulb cost almost as much as an LED version.)

I don't have any good references to cite but from my understanding, well designed LED systems only get dimmer over time (quite reasonably slowly) due to various semiconductor physics. However, by far the most common failure mode for electronics including LEDs is shock and fatigue to the interconnect. This means if you let your LED thermal cycle repeatedly, even to well below datasheet maximums, the solder and bonding are quite likely to fail.

I'm not sure how your aquarium lights are configured (whether they cycled or were always on) but honestly 5-7 years is already quite impressive. There's not really any other lighting technology that can do that. 5-7 years of constant usage also far exceeds what consumer batteries can usually do, which are something on the order of hundreds of "actual cycles" before significant capacity degradation. That translates to maybe a couple years, but definitely less than five.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#162

Post by eru »

detaro wrote: post #70
eru wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only works if there's something like brand loyalty or similar mechanism to make customers come back to the same manufacturer. If my gadget just failed long before I was promised, I am quite likely to shop around.

No, it also works when non-optimal designs are very common in the market. (Not helped with the fact that especially in electronics many brands have decreased in (perceived) quality, so even if something performed well people don't necessarily trust that newer versions are too, which makes actually good brands also less sticky)

I don't understand.

Bad brands aren't sticky in this situation, are there. (I don't know whether good brands are sticky here.) So there's no extra incentives for planned obsolescence, because the next purchase is more than likely to go to a competitor.

Or what do you mean?

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#163

Post by pville »

what-imright wrote: post #101

Stop trying to make hardware last forever. Who here would like to use hardware from 2017? iPhone x anyone? The lifetime of these devices is defined by the reasonable update schedule of the consumer, which is based on moores law. 5 years is a reasonable update schedule. Then put one in a museum and live in the now. You get this much time forget the nostalgia https://www.bryanbraun.com/your-life/months.html

what advancements have made toothbrushes or computer mice from 2017 obsolete?

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#164

Post by eru »

tomrod wrote: post #155
eru wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buyers and sellers with their wallets?

And when sellers decide forced deprecation and e-waste are acceptable, consumers aren't really deciding.

Different sellers have different policies, customers can pick which (if any) policy they like better. New supplier can enter the market.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#165

Post by eru »

jjoonathan wrote: post #82
eru wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As this article pointed out, there's a vast asymmetry of information, which prevents an efficient market, even in theory. What kind of theory are you using here? There might be some theoretical reasons to expect that symmetric information (and a few other conditions) will lead to an efficient market. But that doesn't mean that a pre-existing information symmetry is necessary for an efficient market. The classic exa…

> What kind of theory are you using here? You're about to talk about "market for lemons," so presumably you figured it out. > the business solution to this problem It's not solved, so I can't wait to hear about the solution. > reputation LOL. Reputation is laggy, easy to manipulate, and easy to bypass. > warranties Insurance contracts are even harder to analyze for quality than cars, so you have replaced a small prob…

> In markets where I am in a position to analyze the wisdom in premium options... even though the cost premium to produce quality is small.

Which just shows that going for premium can be a very lucrative strategy for the supplier! Exactly as I suggested.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#166

Post by eru »

pixl97 wrote: post #83
eru wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As people get richer, they can and will afford better food, including from suppliers with better reputation. As people get richer, they also often tend to demand stricter regulation, but that doesn't necessarily mean the regulation is the driving factor. The Chinese market for eg baby formula might be a good example. On average, baby formula consumed in China today is less dodgy than it was in the past. A big part of…

>The Chinese market for eg baby formula might be a good example Um, what? The Chinese government executed people over adulterations of products. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna28... Sorry for the Amp link

Yes, and I am suggesting that regulation is lagging consumer sentiment (which is the driving force for both regulation and the market).

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#167

Post by sedro »

eru wrote: post #67
detaro wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

by forcing customers to buy new ones more often?

That only works if there's something like brand loyalty or similar mechanism to make customers come back to the same manufacturer. If my gadget just failed long before I was promised, I am quite likely to shop around.

There's a mechanism: if people want their bulbs to match, they might pick the same brand/model as a replacement

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#168

Post by makeitdouble »

tomrod wrote: post #52
pixl97 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much any number you see on Amazon is a lie except from a very limited number if sellers.

Which ones are credible?

The answer to this question should probably come from a government or non-profit agency that will end being a adversarial to Amazon.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#169

Post by Synaesthesia »

eru wrote: post #75
13of40 wrote: post #50

My Samsung TV has built-in apps for Netflix and Amazon Prime Video. Currently both of them fail with generic "oops, try again later" error messages despite things like YouTube working fine. My conspiracy theory is that they've just end-of-lifed the apps on that TV model and don't have the balls to tell me.

No conspiracy required. YouTube is famous for supporting really old stuff, Netflix doesn't both quite as much. So, I have an original iPad Air from 2013. Apple is no longer providing updates, and Netflix has long stopped working. But Youtube keeps trucking on just fine. I assume thanks to heroic and soulsucking efforts by the developers. (I remember when I did something as trivial as working on a few web frontends on…

BTW the websites for Netflix and YouTube should work on Safari.

Re: Electronics are built with death dates. Let’s not keep them a secret

#170

Post by benlivengood »

eru wrote: post #73
pessimizer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the business solution to this problem is fairly straightforward and profitable: reputation. "Reputation" is yet more information that is both well known to and distorted by businesses. It's no kind of counterbalance to information asymmetry, it's just another example of it.

You seem to assume that businesses are some kind of mythical, omnipotent entities? In contrast, for many of my needs, I find it relatively easy to buy high quality items even where there's a vast information asymmetry, as long as I am willing to shell out for products from companies with stellar reputations. Granted that's neither foolproof nor applicable for every product or service. It can also get really expensive…

> In contrast, for many of my needs, I find it relatively easy to buy high quality items even where there's a vast information asymmetry, as long as I am willing to shell out for products from companies with stellar reputations.

So it's not an efficient market because of the premium you have to pay for reputation.

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