What is the cost of a cashless society? • Hacker News Board

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#251

Post by SturgeonsLaw » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 1:21 PM UTC

paskozdilar wrote: post #217

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #201

The article is very superficial about cost. It's not just about money, it's about freedom and democracy. A cashless society, like everything with computer, information control or centralize power, is fine when you are riding the happy path. As soon as you are not inline with society, or that slthe system itself become no more adapted to it's context, it's a nightmare.

This rigidity of computers is exactly why we must not let them control society. Society is responsible for each and every member of it. Having 0.001% of population's lives ruined because of an error is not acceptable . Humans may be slower and less efficient than machines (and require living wages), but humans are flexible and understand context. Replacing them with machines will only remove the useful human capabili…

> Imagine being assaulted by a robot policeman whose crime detection facility has malfunctioned, while you can't even complain to his robot colleague because it hasn't been programmed for malfunction of other robot policemen.

To be fair, that's pretty much how it works with human cops

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#252

Post by tboyd47 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 1:25 PM UTC

happyopossum wrote: post #56

tboyd47 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10/10 != 9/10

When giving up privacy, once is roughly equivalent to ‘every time’.

If what you said was true, then no one would have any privacy at all.

But yet certain people have seemingly perfect privacy, like Satoshi Nakamoto and Jeffrey Epstein's employers. How?

I now realize a lot of people on HN are hard liners when it comes to privacy and think there's only absolute privacy and no privacy.

I think you all forget that not all information is the same. You can keep private channels open "just in case" while using public ones.

You can also enhance your privacy to a degree better than most people with simple, easy-to-do steps.

Anyway, the "all or nothing" mindset is detrimental to your cause and makes the average person feel like it's not worth it.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#253

Post by bern4444 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 1:26 PM UTC

kurthr wrote: post #129

EdwardDiego wrote: post #91

New Zealand has gone largely cashless (and entirely chequeless). Everyone is paid by direct credit to their account. You pay your bills via direct credit / debit. I don't think any bank is charging fees (for customers) for electronic transactions via card, or direct credits/debits. They don't even charge a fee for using another bank's ATM anymore. I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. NZ r…

In the US checks (cheques) are used mostly for significant transactions, because it acts as a contract. As a consumer you can easily get away with using electronic or credit/debit transactions for almost everything. However, some transactions over $5-10k are worth using checks. If you get a car loan, you don't need a check, but if you pay "cash" then a check is most likely preferred by you and the dealer. For house d…

I hate using checks. I have little trust in a flimsy piece of paper that you often have to mail to be the method of transaction.

It boggles my mind how checks are still so prevalent. When we have tools like Venmo, Zelle, ACH Transfers, Apple Pay etc.

The few times I've had to use a check (and a cashiers check at that) its been to sign a new lease on an apartment and it is one of the most nerve-racking days I have.

I would absolutely prefer to transact exclusively through digital transfers of any kind.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#254

Post by Daedren » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #66

lotsofpulp wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3% is not for electronic payment, 3% is for accepting credit card payment. Debit cards are much, much cheaper. And merchants are free to charge credit card payers an extra 3% or whatever they want to cover credit card costs. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-el... > Beginning October 1, 2011, interchange fees for certain debit cards are capped at 21 cents plus 0.05% of the transaction value. h…

> 21 cents plus 0.05% This would seem to make it potentially quite expensive on small transactions? People use cards for the most trivial amounts here in Australia. Apparently the typical transaction fees are apparently 0.5% for debit and 0.9% for credit, which means that yeah, I just wave my phone to buy a donut...

Over here in Portugal, many small merchants don't accept card because of this, or at least have a notice mentioning "5€ minimum to pay by card".

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#255

Post by sneak » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

pooper wrote: post #185

alexvoda wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the perfect moment to mention ISO 8601 and RFC 3339.

I started using 8601 without even thinking about it for one simple reason. Alphabetical sorting just works with YYYYmmdd So for example, log20220804.txt https://xkcd.com/1179/ At the very least, use four digit years, not 22 for 2022. > ISO 8601 was published on 06/05/88 and most recently amended on 12/01/04.

yyyymmdd is incorrect, as pointed out explicitly in the xkcd you linked.

The format is yyyy-mm-dd.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#256

Post by Kye » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 2:31 PM UTC

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #226

Cash works during a power outage, or as was recently experienced in Canada because Rogers f'ed up their network, service disruptions.

There's no guarantee a cashier can actually handle processing sales without the computer to add things up. I can't remember the last time I saw a calculator or battery-backed adding machine for backup at a checkout. Assuming prices are even printed/stickered on the products.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#257

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 3:26 PM UTC

Kye wrote: post #256

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #226

Cash works during a power outage, or as was recently experienced in Canada because Rogers f'ed up their network, service disruptions.

There's no guarantee a cashier can actually handle processing sales without the computer to add things up. I can't remember the last time I saw a calculator or battery-backed adding machine for backup at a checkout. Assuming prices are even printed/stickered on the products.

Calculators on phones would still work.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#258

Post by retrac » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 3:38 PM UTC

athrun wrote: post #74

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the next time there's a major network outage, whether because of incompetence (like the recent national outage in Canada), natural disaster, sabotage, or even war, access to all of those conveniences will be frozen solid. One won't be able to purchase so much as a stick of gum. James Burke, in the series Connections , warns of the "technology trap", where our dependence on various high-tech systems becomes so hea…

newsflash: point of sales transactions can usually be processed offline, and settled at a later point in time. Merchant A might be unable to process while offline, while Merchant B next door will have no such issue.

Maybe where you are? But EFTPOS in Canada is done online. It is designed to. The bank interrogates the cryptographic processor in the chip and pin card over the network with each purchase.

I was unable to purchase anything with my bank card for more than a day during the outage mentioned above.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#259

Post by danaris » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 3:48 PM UTC

jltsiren wrote: post #148

grecy wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. Banking in the US is like going back in time 20 years. Even when I flew through Dallas and LAX during the height of COVID I had to hand my credit card over for someone to swipe, then pickup a pen that thousands of others had touched to sign a piece of paper. I've been tapping to pay exclusively for years and forgot about all that ancient stuff.

I think that backwardness is now a thing of the past. Most developed countries I'm familiar with made cheap/free wire transfers the most fundamental banking product decades ago. The change was driven by the banks, because handling checks was expensive and there was too much fraud involved. The US never made the change, probably because there were too many banks that could not agree on anything. That doesn't matter mu…

> I think that backwardness is now a thing of the past.

It's really not.

Just the other day, I had to pay for gas at a station that still used swipe rather than chip, and then ate at an outdoor café where I had to give my card to the server, who took it away and brought back a sheet to sign and a pen.

A lot of places are updating to handle chip and tap-to-pay, which is great, but until swipe entry is completely obsoleted and non-portable terminals for restaurants are banned by the payment processors, there will still be some who hold on because that's what they have and what they know.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#260

Post by BiteCode_dev » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

paskozdilar wrote: post #217

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #201

The article is very superficial about cost. It's not just about money, it's about freedom and democracy. A cashless society, like everything with computer, information control or centralize power, is fine when you are riding the happy path. As soon as you are not inline with society, or that slthe system itself become no more adapted to it's context, it's a nightmare.

This rigidity of computers is exactly why we must not let them control society. Society is responsible for each and every member of it. Having 0.001% of population's lives ruined because of an error is not acceptable . Humans may be slower and less efficient than machines (and require living wages), but humans are flexible and understand context. Replacing them with machines will only remove the useful human capabili…

You can experience that every time you fill a form online. If it works, it's a joy. Saved time and energy. So much more efficient.

If something goes wrong however, there is no flexible human to fix it, give you an alternative solution, or perform a workaround. You are now in for a long and painful trip.