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Abolish the PhD (2016)

blog.devicerandom.org

61–70 of 197 posts

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#61
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“They hate us ‘cause they ain’t us” probably isn’t a valid explanation. Grad students are worked like dogs, everyone knows it, and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor.

> Grad students are worked like dogs They do... but the thing is the work for themselves, which I think is a different kind of hard work. > and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor Is that the goal?

> > and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor

> Is that the goal?

I have seen only a small slice of all the theoretical computer science PhD students in my parts of the world (Central and Western Europe) but almost universally they passionately loved their work (both research and teaching) and would prefer to do it in the future.

"Becoming a professor" is one of the easiest ways to continue doing what you are doing, so I would say yes, it is a goal.

Like I have said elsewhere also, we are blessed to have many industry jobs in CS which are quite mentally challenging, and so for us it does not need to be the only choice. But still, a permanent academic position offers many things that the industry cannot -- hence a goal for many.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess he means with protections provided by employment laws, as there are no laws mandating protections such as annual leave for students? I think extending employment laws to cover graduate students or setup additional laws might be more appropriate.

> there are no laws mandating protections such as annual leave for students? Did I have an unusually permissive advisor or something? My advisor didn’t control my leave - it was up to me to manage my time.

I have heard that there are some supervisors abusing their students, pushing for progress and insulting them when the progress is not ideal, or even assign tasks unrelated to their research (projects from their company?). Effectively their supervisors are controlling their leave.

I guess the current situation really depends on supervisor, so it would be nice if there are laws for students' basic right.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#63
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can go from undergrad to phd???

Doing a masters in between is usually I'd say a big waste of time and very inadvisable. If you're strong enough to start your PhD then just start it. And to literally answer your question - you don't need any kind of prior degree at all to start a PhD. I was recently investigating getting a gifted engineer onto a PhD programme without an undergraduate, and it was possible.

I can't believe I didn't know this, I thought yoy had to have masters before phd.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In industry we just call those junior and senior employees.

The standards for junior employees are much higher. I have encountered several PhDs in computational fields who barely knew how to code when they were first admitted to their grad programs. They would not have been hired as junior software engineers at any decent company.

Computational fields are not software engineering. In order to be productive, you need expertise in the field you are studying, as well as in at least two of CS, software engineering, statistics, and mathematics. Undergraduate degrees are too short to teach all that, which is why people must continue learning basic skills during PhD (and postdoc).

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#65

Graduates are underpaid by society. The reason is either there are too many graduates, or graduate work is futile and not needed

I don't think its either actually. The work is insanely important

We need more basic research, I personally think it's underfunded and that's the reason that graduates are underpaid. Research in the sciences can be extremely expensive just buying equipment and supplies.

On top of that, we have universities taking massive chunks of the research funding for their own pockets to fund admin and other departments

One route to making things more affordable could be more nonprofits working as research supply companies instead of profiteering corporations.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are no laws mandating protections such as annual leave for students? Did I have an unusually permissive advisor or something? My advisor didn’t control my leave - it was up to me to manage my time.

I have heard that there are some supervisors abusing their students, pushing for progress and insulting them when the progress is not ideal, or even assign tasks unrelated to their research (projects from their company?). Effectively their supervisors are controlling their leave. I guess the current situation really depends on supervisor, so it would be nice if there are laws for students' basic right.

Yeah a third way - if the problem is they're being treated like employees then let's not double-down and legally make them employees.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#67

There are some very good points in the article. As someone whose adviser proved troublesome when it came to graduating and letter writing (a horrible practice as well!), I second most of the points made. At the same time, there's also reason for cautious optimism. In the German system, for instance, PhD students are paid (mind you, it's an academic salary, which is not a lot but a first year PhD student with a full t…

> In the German system, for instance, PhD students are paid (mind you, it's an academic salary, which is not a lot but a first year PhD student with a full time contract already makes more money than the median German salaried worker)

Just to put numbers on this: PhD students earn roughly 4300€ per month (before taxes and insurance), resulting in something like 2600€ take-home pay. This is for a “full-time” position (quotes because all positions are full-time, it is only the pay that is reduced). In CS full-time positions are common, in most other fields they are not.

If you want to look up details, search for E13 TV-L.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#68
It's funny, in that my (current) PhD hasn't felt anything like that. I dunno if it's my source of funding or whatever, but I've not had to do much more than the research I said I was going to do when I got the funding. I've had a module here and there, but otherwise, I've been able to 100% focus upon the research that I've been doing, which I've totally self directed. My supervisors have been great, supportive, etc, and I've benefited from links to industry as well. It's been a great 2.5 years, and I'll be sad once it's over, really.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standards for junior employees are much higher. I have encountered several PhDs in computational fields who barely knew how to code when they were first admitted to their grad programs. They would not have been hired as junior software engineers at any decent company.

Computational fields are not software engineering. In order to be productive, you need expertise in the field you are studying, as well as in at least two of CS, software engineering, statistics, and mathematics. Undergraduate degrees are too short to teach all that, which is why people must continue learning basic skills during PhD (and postdoc).

>you need expertise in the field you are studying, as well as in at least two of CS, software engineering, statistics, and mathematics

There are some very talented undergraduates with expertise in several of the above. They generally end up being the most successful PhD students, since they are immediately productive from the get-go. (Or, they work as a junior quant at Jane Street.)

>people must continue learning basic skills during PhD

Hence why they’re considered trainees, and not junior employees. Junior employees may have rudimentary skills in certain areas, but not so rudimentary that their productivity is zero (or negative!)

>and postdoc

No postdocs should still be learning basic skills. The (ostensible) purpose of a postdoc is a final step to prepare very talented PhDs for a faculty position. People who are faculty material should have mastered all relevant skills during their PhD. Sadly, the postdoc has been perverted to become a holding tank to absorb excess PhDs with no other career options, since, as the article points out, postdocs are a source of cheap experienced labor.

I’m all for treating grad students and postdocs as real employees, but we need to acknowledge that doing so would dramatically raise standards for admission, which I’m also all for.

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