Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can go from undergrad to phd???
Doing a masters in between is usually I'd say a big waste of time and very inadvisable. If you're strong enough to start your PhD then just start it. And to literally answer your question - you don't need any kind of prior degree at all to start a PhD. I was recently investigating getting a gifted engineer onto a PhD programme without an undergraduate, and it was possible.
Abolish the PhD (2016)
31–40 of 197 posts
Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)
#32I haven’t seen a career field yet where early-career employees are not abused.
Doctors? Residency
IT? Support or DevOps
Lawyers? “Partner track”
Our current education system at all levels is fundamentally broken in many ways. We don’t even agree on what education is for- most people think it’s for preparing you for work but many people think that it’s for training you to be well-rounded or to inculcate cultural mores and values or to propagate ideology.
In general, to prepare people for work (to enable them to self-support and to be net benefit for society rather than net cost) you need some basic education (reading, arithmetic, etc) and then some skill training.
I think all sorts of careers would benefit from having apprenticeships that incorporate whatever mix of classroom training and practice, but there are several problems:
1. Most businesses don’t want to bear the costs of training employees, and don’t care to be vested in their success in that way. They’d rather pick drop-in rock stars, compensate them as little as necessary to attract and retain them, and cut them loose the second their performance starts to drop.
2. Gatekeeping - the people who would train apprentices might feel threatened by apprentices, mostly because who wants to compete for their own job, so why not limit the number of entrants and either assimilate or eliminate ones that could pose competitive threats. many organizations, eg the AMA (American Medical Association), cosmetologists, moving companies(!) capture government licensing mechanisms and either limit entry to the field or impose ridiculous burdens of effort and cost for entry.
3. Power dynamics. TFA discussed this at length, but many people happily exploit those under their power for labor, sex, or money.
So the bottom line is that we’re screwed; there’s so much entrenched interest at every single level, and so much negative human nature involved, that there will never be some kind of systemic solution.
Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)
#33There are some very good points in the article. As someone whose adviser proved troublesome when it came to graduating and letter writing (a horrible practice as well!), I second most of the points made.
At the same time, there's also reason for cautious optimism. In the German system, for instance, PhD students are paid (mind you, it's an academic salary, which is not a lot but a first year PhD student with a full time contract already makes more money than the median German salaried worker) and new graduate school regulations are supposed to crack down on advisers abusing the system.
Yes, not everything is perfect, and there's a bunch of people in academia that are trying hard to keep the status quo, but things are shifting slightly.
The most worrisome trend, also mentioned in the article, is that there are just so many highly qualified academics. If the trend I see in machine learning continues, the next generation of PhD students will require multiple publications before being admitted to a job... That's highly problematic in more than one way.
Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doing a masters in between is usually I'd say a big waste of time and very inadvisable. If you're strong enough to start your PhD then just start it. And to literally answer your question - you don't need any kind of prior degree at all to start a PhD. I was recently investigating getting a gifted engineer onto a PhD programme without an undergraduate, and it was possible.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32329786
I know many people outside the US who did a PhD without any kind of masters. I did mine with a masters but no bachelors. It's even possible to be a full professor but not have any PhD. There's lots of options - don't force yourself to fit an arbitrary pipeline.
Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)
#35Does anyone have experience with being a non-traditional PhD student and doing your PhD later in life? I worked a bit and want to return for a PhD in CS. I took some courses at a nearby (and good) institution and did well (for fun). I want to continue taking graduate courses and and get involved in research before I apply for PhD programs (since I been out of school for a while). Curious to hear from older students t…
I've done that, mostly because my position felt stagnant and repetitive. Some things to keep in mind:
- It's a full-time job. Unless you're really brilliant, or your current position has a huge overlap with the research you want to work on, expect to drop your current position.
- You have a steady income at this point, so you're not in a rush. Be patient and research where to apply.
- If you can use your position to first network with your future advisor, do it. Can you set-up some small collaboration relevant to your current position? Even better. Trust can get you a long way, and lift any doubts.
- Your strong card is that you will probably need much less "babysitting" than a younger student. Play that well.
- Writing is essential part of the PhD. If you already have strong technical writing skills, that's a huge advantage.
- Find a PhD that involves the least amount of exams possible. It's fine to attend courses if you find the topic relevant to your research, but being forced through an exam routine may not sit very well if you're already in your mid-30s.
- Post-PhD industry job opportunities typically arise through (paid!) industry internships. Make sure to complete 1-2 of them, even if that will add to your PhD time.
Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)
#36That we only need to abolish PhD programs is like shaving the foam off the top of a spoiled bear and thinking that fixes it. The whole premise of college has been rendered obsolete by the Internet a long time ago. What does a University provide that you cannot find online? You are paying to read textbooks and listen to someone quote from those textbooks. Do you need someone to tell you that you must study X for N hours a day and then pass a test for it? Follow your curiosity and enforce your own discipline. Other than that, colleges are merely social clubs. In the USA, the job requirement for a University degree has become part of the grand grift for profit: you are billed outrageous amounts for babysitting and then pay more in interest on the loans that you will be saddled with for decades. This, like so much of our society, has become a scam.
Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)
#37I thoroughly enjoyed my time as a PhD student.
Imho it might be the only time in your career when you are truly, 100% your own boss. You own your PhD thesis. While your professor/advisors give input and feedback you ultimately decide what goes in there and what not. You have the freedom to explore anything you deem as relevant and there are no customers/co-workers/VCs etc who tell you otherwise.
Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)
#38I haven’t seen a career field yet where early-career employees are not abused. Doctors? Residency IT? Support or DevOps Lawyers? “Partner track” Our current education system at all levels is fundamentally broken in many ways. We don’t even agree on what education is for- most people think it’s for preparing you for work but many people think that it’s for training you to be well-rounded or to inculcate cultural mores…
Is this a cultural problem? I've never experienced abuse of junior employees, generally they get a "buddy" and are encouraged to find a mentor. Here in the Netherlands PhD students get a proper salary and are encouraged to finished in 4 years, I wrote my thesis with only 1 paper published (of 5 chapters). It was a nice time, I learned a lot from my friendly prof that cared about my well being and loved being in the lab with me.
It's not all bad. Sure, the whole graduation ceremony is an elitist clown-show with a weird dress-code, but it was fun.
But perhaps I was lucky.
Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)
#39There are some very good points in the article. As someone whose adviser proved troublesome when it came to graduating and letter writing (a horrible practice as well!), I second most of the points made. At the same time, there's also reason for cautious optimism. In the German system, for instance, PhD students are paid (mind you, it's an academic salary, which is not a lot but a first year PhD student with a full t…
I was offered a half position, which was actually a 37.5% position. My second advisor proposed a summa cum laude, but my prof said its pretty close (0.6) but not there and awarded a magna cum laude with a proposal that I do a Habilitation under him…
Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)
#40In Norway, you are employed by the University. Your title is a (doctorate) "stipendiat", but in any case - you are still employed, with a state governed title and minimum wage.
Current minimum wage for these seem to be 491200 NOK, or roughly $50k / year. Obviously not a whole lot compared to being a salaried professional with Masters Degree...but also much more than the usual student loan / stipend here in Norway, which is 128877 NOK / $13.2k