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Disneyland with Death Penalty

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Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#231

Post by DubiousPusher »

licebmi__at__ wrote: post #208
DubiousPusher wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is a fair observation. I grew up in poverty in the U.S. and even in those days I found the stories of Singapore's authoritarian oppression disturbing. Would I have traded my chilly and mouldering aluminum sides trailer for a clean Singaporean public works apartment and a jackboot hovering around my ass? I'm not sure I would. Now, I'm not sure it was as bad as the stories made it sound. Let's be rea…

Not trying to diminish your experience, but you might want to put in balance that a lot of people in the south of US actually risk their lives crossing the border for a chance of living in US poverty.

Yeah to be very clear, poverty in the U.S. is better than poverty a lot of places. I'm sure there are levels of poverty where one would accept basically any draconian measure if it meant eating on the regular. But that's not the point I was pushing back on. It was this

> For the rest of 7,950,000,000 people on earth, any country that provides safety, basic food, health, decent education is a heaven and wouldn't mind if their own country is like Singapore

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#232

Post by JetAlone »

olah_1 wrote: post #229
JetAlone wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call that "working" multi-culturalism. Equally enforced norms amount to a monoculture, a new culture spackled over the peoples' former culture. It'll inconvenience different groups and individuals unequally, and over time it will stamp out their unique identities because in practice, everything you think and believe and then actually follow comes from the governmental authority.

Well yeah, if it is your culture to spit on the ground and be a menace to society, then your culture will be erased.

You inspired me to think of net-negative public health risks like smoking, casual sex, and very distracting media. And then to look this article up:

https://medium.com/kampung-seaport/noises-of-a-modern-city-1...

"I have never known that Singapore. My Singapore is pragmatic and sensitive, one of enforced invisibility, reduced risk, minimum noise."

Faith in whatever god or adherence to whatever principle of "harmony" may personally describe an individual's pattern of being, it is the government towards which truly meaningful, actionable intercessions are made. No more noisy Calls To Prayer from these minarets! Instead we will have Calls To Politeness blare from the tallest metaphorical tower. For the successful "multi-"culture, that is god - that is harmony.

Unfortunately, while your zeal is appreciated, "your culture will be erased" is a dangerous, panic-inducing way to say what you mean. To help encourage successful, peaceful discourse and assimilation, let no more of your spittle accidentally hit the floor with this aggressive rhetoric.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#233

Post by [deleted] »

smcf wrote: post #32

Last month I visited Singapore for close to two weeks. I kept thinking about this essay, because in some sense it captures the Singapore vibe, but in another I think it unjustifiably pigeonholes it. I brought a dressy Seiko watch with me, on the off chance I might want to go to a nice restaurant. I ended up wearing it daily after the first few days. There was an was almost subconscious pressure to fit in with the maj…

[deleted]

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#234

Post by soraminazuki »

rayiner wrote: post #162
brnt wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore's repression isn't exactly a secret, and if freedom is not a purpose to use your wealth for, then I don't see the point of wealth. Counterculture is healthy and natural for many reasons, and its absence is a concerning indicator for any nation.

This is a very western viewpoint! For most Asian societies, “freedom” is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Some level of counterculture is inevitable and must be tolerated. But folks in Tokyo, for example, wouldn’t be happier if their society were more like NYC!

The Japanese constitution would beg to differ.

> Article 11. The people shall not be prevented from enjoying any of the fundamental human rights. These fundamental human rights guaranteed to the people by this Constitution shall be conferred upon the people of this and future generations as eternal and inviolate rights.

It can’t get any clearer than this. Even suggest replacing that with “freedom is just a means to an end,” and Tokyo, or rather, the entire country is going to be pissed.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#235

Post by soraminazuki »

rayiner wrote: post #222
brnt wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing says "I'm a westerner" more than speaking about "Asia". Never been to NYC btw.

I’m Bangladeshi (but born in Thailand and raised in the US) so I’m not unfamiliar with the general contours of “Asian” cultures. While south Asians, East Asians, and Southeast Asians, in particular are vastly different culturally (as well as massive cultural differences within each of those groups), it’s fair to characterize Asian cultures as placing far less emphasis on individual “freedom” than western ones. Until…

Tokyo changed the rules precisely because it was widely criticized as being as inhumane and unjust. It’s not because people thought it was a good idea.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#236

Post by shard »

asiachick wrote: post #225
shard wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many good points, but I'd like to nitpick a bit: > Singapore has way better clubs than SF or LA. If you want to party hard until late at night it's got plenty of options. Vs SF/LA where there's a 2am curfew your options effectively end at 1:30am. > Try getting food in LA/SF after 11. Your options becoming Dennys and that's about it. In LA, go to K-Town (Korea Town). Many good restaurants, lounges, and karaoke places…

my experience in k-town is going to BCD-Tofu at 2am and them having the door locked. You knock, they look outside to see if they feel you are safe to let in. Sorry but I don't want to live in a place where businesses have to take such precautions

You'll be glad to know that BCD is now officially 24 hours, no knocking required.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#237

Post by fomine3 »

soraminazuki wrote: post #234
rayiner wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very western viewpoint! For most Asian societies, “freedom” is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Some level of counterculture is inevitable and must be tolerated. But folks in Tokyo, for example, wouldn’t be happier if their society were more like NYC!

The Japanese constitution would beg to differ. > Article 11. The people shall not be prevented from enjoying any of the fundamental human rights. These fundamental human rights guaranteed to the people by this Constitution shall be conferred upon the people of this and future generations as eternal and inviolate rights. It can’t get any clearer than this. Even suggest replacing that with “freedom is just a means to a…

It's true but current Japanese constitution is originally written by US. Here in Japan, people tend to think that freedom is given thing, rather than gained thing. So maybe there's no very strong preference for freedom like US, but also think grouping "Asia" is too rough. PRC is quite different at least.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#238

Post by merry_flame »

pydry wrote: post #90
rayiner wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ascribing Singapore’s wealth to its location as a strategic port is more than a bit odd, considering its always been where it is, but hasn’t been rich this whole time. In classical times Chittagong, the port city where my dad went to college, was one of the most important ports in the world. But that didn’t prevent Bangladesh from being one of the poorest countries in the world in modern times. Clearly there is more…

It was rich while the British ran the place and they founded the city coz its a good place for a port. The locals just didnt see much of that wealth. I find the geography doesnt really get thrown around a lot. Lee Kuan Yew's boasts that the city became rich despite "no natural resources" does though, which i find to be misleading. There is obviously more to the story than just the port but it's important to understan…

Penang, the other key constituent of the British Straits Settlements, provides an excellent counterfactual. Besides location, population, ethnic mix, colonial history, etc. were extremely similar back. Though Penang isn't a poor city by any means, Singapore blows it out of the water. Give LKY credit where credit is due.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#239

Post by fennecfoxy »

bnralt wrote: post #82

I personally found Singapore charming when I was there. It's a fascinating mix of several different cultures who all seem to retained many of their traditional customs. I never understood the sterile critique myself, the city never struck me as such. Gibson's main critique, from what I can tell, is the lack of much of a counterculture similar to what you'd find in the U.S. allied-bloc (Europe, U.S., Canada, Japan, So…

I had to go to Singapore on business. This was when our clients knew I was gay but the thought hadn't really occurred to them to check Singapore's stance on that before settling on that location for some co-op development work.

Unfortunately Singapore is, in some ways, much like Dubai. The sad thing is that they're defended with "well it's pretty safe there and they don't really arrest people for that anymore even though they have the legal power to and they have a pride parade and stuff too so it's fine". So why don't they change their laws?

It's also another wacky country where being gay is illegal only for men. Like I know certain types of porn are popular with straight guys, but like, seriously?

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#240

Post by soraminazuki »

fomine3 wrote: post #237
soraminazuki wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Japanese constitution would beg to differ. > Article 11. The people shall not be prevented from enjoying any of the fundamental human rights. These fundamental human rights guaranteed to the people by this Constitution shall be conferred upon the people of this and future generations as eternal and inviolate rights. It can’t get any clearer than this. Even suggest replacing that with “freedom is just a means to a…

It's true but current Japanese constitution is originally written by US. Here in Japan, people tend to think that freedom is given thing, rather than gained thing. So maybe there's no very strong preference for freedom like US, but also think grouping "Asia" is too rough. PRC is quite different at least.

Sure, the US did draft the constitution, but the only people making any fuss about it is the Japanese far right. While Japanese people certainly don't talk about their constitution as much as Americans do, it's still safe to say that it has widespread acceptance. The majority of the population wouldn't accept a major overhaul of the constitution, let alone any attempt to have their freedom taken away. The only source of any serious controversy in the Japanese constitution is article 9, which prohibits Japan from having their own military. But that's a different kind of topic from individual freedom.
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