Disneyland with Death Penalty • Hacker News Board

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#161

Post by shard » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 10:21 PM UTC

asiachick wrote: post #73

I find this to be some of the most racist shit I've ever read. Gees I can't believe the comments here. Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world. When I've brought up how much I like Singapore someone always retorts "Oh, that place where you get arrested for walking down the sidewalk and chewing gum" to which I also respond "Well, I could be in the USA where I get walk down the sidewalk and get mugged" Si…

Many good points, but I'd like to nitpick a bit:

> Singapore has way better clubs than SF or LA. If you want to party hard until late at night it's got plenty of options. Vs SF/LA where there's a 2am curfew your options effectively end at 1:30am.

> Try getting food in LA/SF after 11. Your options becoming Dennys and that's about it.

In LA, go to K-Town (Korea Town). Many good restaurants, lounges, and karaoke places stay open all night long. The party doesn't stop at 2AM.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#162

Post by rayiner » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 10:22 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #132

bnralt wrote: post #82

I personally found Singapore charming when I was there. It's a fascinating mix of several different cultures who all seem to retained many of their traditional customs. I never understood the sterile critique myself, the city never struck me as such. Gibson's main critique, from what I can tell, is the lack of much of a counterculture similar to what you'd find in the U.S. allied-bloc (Europe, U.S., Canada, Japan, So…

Singapore's repression isn't exactly a secret, and if freedom is not a purpose to use your wealth for, then I don't see the point of wealth. Counterculture is healthy and natural for many reasons, and its absence is a concerning indicator for any nation.

This is a very western viewpoint! For most Asian societies, “freedom” is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Some level of counterculture is inevitable and must be tolerated. But folks in Tokyo, for example, wouldn’t be happier if their society were more like NYC!

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#163

Post by warning26 » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 10:23 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #111

paulpauper wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds bad, and it is, until you realize that he was stealing street signs, which is a crime in probably any country, not just Singapore. TBH, who decides to steal street signs in a foreign country? Under the 1966 Vandalism Act, originally passed to curb the spread of political graffiti and which specifically penalized vandalism of government property,[1] Fay was sentenced on March 3, 1994, to four months in jail,…

> It sounds bad, and it is, until you realize that he was stealing street signs, which is a crime in probably any country, not just Singapore. TBH, who decides to steal street signs in a foreign country? He was living with his mother in Singapore, so while he was a US citizen, he was stealing street signs "at home." Also vandalism and theft of street signs is certainly quite common in St Louis, where he lived before…

You know, if St Louis had similar penalties for stealing street signs, I'll bet there would be a lot less crime there overall.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#164

Post by rayiner » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 10:24 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #160

bnralt wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore isn't noticeably more repressive than other countries in South East Asia. All things considered, I'd say it probably leans on the more open side, but these things are hard to judge. If people want to avoid South East Asia altogether because it's systems are too different, they're welcome to. But I don't think it makes sense to expect everyone to write off the entire region. As for culture, Gibson is dismiss…

Repression is a set of vicious laws that strictly punish people who step out of line, not a vibe. It's alright to enjoy a repressive culture, but odds are it because the laws are directed at people who are not you, to keep them from bothering you. That's why a good sign of repression is presidents-for-life and political dynasties. You didn't need the laws unless you had a population who wanted to do the things.

The laws exist to keep the minority of counter culture people from disrupting the orderly society enjoyed by the majority. Elevating the “rights” of the minority over the comfort of the majority is not a universal value.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#165

Post by DubiousPusher » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 10:24 PM UTC

deltree7 wrote: post #137

bnralt wrote: post #82

I personally found Singapore charming when I was there. It's a fascinating mix of several different cultures who all seem to retained many of their traditional customs. I never understood the sterile critique myself, the city never struck me as such. Gibson's main critique, from what I can tell, is the lack of much of a counterculture similar to what you'd find in the U.S. allied-bloc (Europe, U.S., Canada, Japan, So…

Singapore's criticism will always come from 'White Educated Liberals'. If you are earning a comfortable 6 figure salary in a developed nation, living in an extremely safe neighborhood with access to great education and healthcare, you kind assume all those things are easy and the only thing that matters is food/music diversity and counter-culture. For the rest of 7,950,000,000 people on earth, any country that provid…

I don't think this is a fair observation. I grew up in poverty in the U.S. and even in those days I found the stories of Singapore's authoritarian oppression disturbing. Would I have traded my chilly and mouldering aluminum sides trailer for a clean Singaporean public works apartment and a jackboot hovering around my ass? I'm not sure I would.

Now, I'm not sure it was as bad as the stories made it sound. Let's be real. Some amount of what we heard was sensationalized for storytelling effect but don't completely discount that people will forgo material comforts for dignity, honor and autonomy.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#166

Post by bergenty » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 10:26 PM UTC

deltree7 wrote: post #140

brnt wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore's repression isn't exactly a secret, and if freedom is not a purpose to use your wealth for, then I don't see the point of wealth. Counterculture is healthy and natural for many reasons, and its absence is a concerning indicator for any nation.

Quoted post unavailable.

It’s repressive if you’re an explicit LGBT person. But to be very honest, I’m okay with the strict (public) conformity. I like the idea of a common cohesive culture and don’t like the LGBT movement in America at all (though I’m totally for people to do whatever in private). As humans, it helps to have a “correct path” that everyone in society agrees upon as long as it’s not exclusive of people that cannot change their “condition”.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#167

Post by warning26 » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 10:27 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #76

picodguyo wrote: post #57

Some of you may be too young to remember the context of this. In 1993, an American was sentenced to be caned for what would be considered minor offenses in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay There was a huge media frenzy in the run-up to the punishment. Then he got caned, had a sore bottom, and life went on.

It sounds bad, and it is, until you realize that he was stealing street signs, which is a crime in probably any country, not just Singapore. TBH, who decides to steal street signs in a foreign country? Under the 1966 Vandalism Act, originally passed to curb the spread of political graffiti and which specifically penalized vandalism of government property,[1] Fay was sentenced on March 3, 1994, to four months in jail,…

> prison conditions relative to other g-20 nations (solitary confinement for example), and people get long sentences for recidivism

If the US would properly apply the death penalty more, that would solve most of issues you list. Recidivism necessarily goes to zero, no need for solitary, etc.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#168

Post by bergenty » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 10:30 PM UTC

deltree7 wrote: post #137

bnralt wrote: post #82

I personally found Singapore charming when I was there. It's a fascinating mix of several different cultures who all seem to retained many of their traditional customs. I never understood the sterile critique myself, the city never struck me as such. Gibson's main critique, from what I can tell, is the lack of much of a counterculture similar to what you'd find in the U.S. allied-bloc (Europe, U.S., Canada, Japan, So…

Singapore's criticism will always come from 'White Educated Liberals'. If you are earning a comfortable 6 figure salary in a developed nation, living in an extremely safe neighborhood with access to great education and healthcare, you kind assume all those things are easy and the only thing that matters is food/music diversity and counter-culture. For the rest of 7,950,000,000 people on earth, any country that provid…

So your argument is authoritarianism is better than abject poverty? A lot of the world lives there but when people get to a certain standard of living everyone still wants the basics that America offers.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#169

Post by hackeraccount » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 10:32 PM UTC

I've been to Singapore twice for pretty short stays but I came away describing it (without having read Gibson's article) as Disney Land without the rides. My peak Singapore experience was going to a club (No lie. DJ Jazzy Jeff was there.) and wandering out of the place late at night wandering around trying to figure out where the hotel was. Here's the thing. Strange City. Middle of the night. I felt totally safe and I'm pretty sure I was.

Compare that to the city I live in. It's safe enough during the day but at night you need to know where you are down to the block and be aware of your surroundings.

Honestly if I had a job there and could convince my wife I'd move to Singapore - it's not the Switzerland of Asia but it's something close to that.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#170

Post by pessimizer » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 10:32 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #59

rayiner wrote: post #27

As someone from Bangladesh, I read this and think "who cares?" In 1960 Singapore was a poor third world country. Today it's as rich as the US. You cannot understand how significant such a change is to the people of the country unless you've lived in a third world country and really seen what it's like. Whatever draconian measures it took to get there, they were worth it. Fareed Zakaria's interview with Lee Kuan Yew,…

The key is a benevolent "dictator(ship)". A benevolent dictator, from a most utility PoV is better than random search for good government via imperfect democracy. There is little question that a few countries in Asia benefitted from authoritarianism, some were more kid glovish than others, and obviously some were more violent than others in suppressing dissent. However, they achieved economic success for their people…

> China too, initially was too authoritarian and too ideological, till they opened up their economy

Too authoritarian and too ideological China lifted more people out of poverty faster than had previously happened on the planet. The problem was that Mao was insulated from information and his intentions were filtered through a corrupt collection of creeps who surrounded him, his wife being one of the worst. It eventually made him completely out of touch, and even his intentions became bizarre. The opening of the economy saved a country on fire, and wouldn't have been needed if they had established a proper system with proper succession and safeguards against corruption.

Removing stigma against wealth seriously damaged China culturally; instead of unity in beliefs and values, they drifted into boring nationalism. They used to fight for each other, now they fight for China.