TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021)

#301

Post by kortex » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 3:16 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #43

kortex wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> much of it seems very difficult to falsify It's quite straightforward, albeit involved (as in technically easy, but takes time) to falsify. You have to work with a licensed medical professional who will evaluate traits, strengths, and difficulties, and to what extent they impact functioning as a person in society. Basically, are they "well-adjusted"? If they make it through school, college and adulthood without a t…

> Basically, are they "well-adjusted"? This is a radically behaviorist interpretation. A common criticism of the diagnostics for ADHD (and Autism, for that matter) is that it ignores the person’s internal experience. I was formally diagnosed with ADHD in 2017. I’d been visibly quite successful in that time, but at the expense of my own mental health because I was fighting a constant uphill battle. ADHD was a set of s…

I think we are on the same page. Not being confrontational, but please re-read my comment, specifically:

> If they make it through school, college and adulthood without a ton of struggling

You wrote:

> but at the expense of my own mental health because I was fighting a constant uphill battle.

Gp wrote:

> "By what process can someone reasonably determine that they are NOT neurodivergent?"

I'm using "well-adjusted" here to mean like, naturally well-adjusted - you are able to complete life activities without constantly having to learn strategies and fight the good fight just to do what comes much more freely to neurotypicals.

I.e. being able to socialize well doesn't disqualify you from ASD, because masking is a thing.

A proper licensed professional will ask the right kind of questions to ascertain this. If you are successful but feel like if you stop struggling for a moment, that's a strong indicator.

Re: TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021)

#302

Post by naravara » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 3:16 PM UTC

jquery wrote: post #250

rlv-dan wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's taboo to criticise such movements because by extension you criticise those that actually have the illness. And some movements have grown quite powerful politically. If you allude that it's problematic to let children change sex, you are painted as anti lgbtixxxx. Activism has won against science.

It was never taboo to criticize pro-ana groups. Being lgbt isn’t a mental illness. Not medically speaking, anyway. Maybe they were considered such in the past. Go far enough back and we used bloodletting as a common treatment, our understanding generally improves with time. I have no desire to go back to an era where lgbt people were persecuted. With respect to your other point. “Children” is a broad category. Pre-pu…

> Being lgbt isn’t a mental illness. Not medically speaking, anyway.

Medically defining what an "illness" is can get into a lot of squirrely philosophical questions that aren't really scientifically or objectively answerable. We basically just define a mental illness as something that significantly impairs your ability to function happily in life. If society, in general, is intolerant and hostile to you due to that orientation it's not far off to think maybe that's something people might want to take a pill to fix if that was actually possible.

We do recognize, now, that pathologizing being LGBT didn't really do the people with those orientations much good and attempts to reverse or suppress the impulses tended to just lead to worse mental and emotional outcomes. It turned out that simply carving out space in society to accommodate it worked a lot better than turning it into an individual problem to be "solved." And, it turns out, it wasn't that big of a deal to let people live like that after all.

But I'm not sure to what extent a lot of stuff we think of as mental "illnesses" aren't like that as well. Like perhaps a lot of ADHD or anxiety disorders are actually fairly reasonable responses to sociological stressors, but we just treat them as individual problems to fix rather than wide-scale issues to address at a higher level.

Re: TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021)

#303

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #232

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source: I've been diagnosed with severe ADHD on 4 occasions(mostly retests for due diligence reasons after switching psychiatrist) Generally by having a full workup with a psychiatrist. They will do various interviews. Possibly might have to interview parents and teachers in pediatric cases or in adult cases where ADHD was not diagnosed in childhood(childhood onset is a diagnostic requirement for adult ADHD). In more…

> childhood onset is a diagnostic requirement for adult ADHD What would be the diagnosis for adult-onset ADHD symptoms without a childhood history of those symptoms?

Theoretically, any type to damage to or dysfunction in the frontal lobe which is affected by ADHD can manifest similar symptoms. There are some nutritional deficiencies that can cause a false positive for ADHD(zinc, possibly omega-3). There's also some curious cases of ADHD manifesting due to an very specific type of potassium imbalance. Though AFAIK the only known cases of this have been genetic.

It's probably also possible that childhood ADHD could have been "hiding" in childhood, if say your childhood environment was very ADHD-compatible it might not have been enough of a problem to be detected then, but become a problem in adulthood as your environment and responsibilites change. Probably you could make an argument for a diagnosis of adult ADHD in a case like that if there's at least a family history of ADHD.

Re: TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021)

#304

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

qzx_pierri wrote: post #273

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bar also got a lot lower than back then. You jump over the gaps in the tiles on the road? You must have OCD. You broke up with your bf/gf.. you must have depression. You're happy a bit? Bipolar disorder. You're a guy and play with a barbie... trans. Less horny, asexual. And let's not forget a bunch of adhd/autism and other disorders, when a kid gets bored in school. On the other hand, we have professionals (docto…

> parents give their kids pills,because it's easier than actually parenting that kid. And then you have threads like this, where people call for mass censorship because some believe it's easier to ban "bad" topics than to actively parent their kids.

[deleted]

Re: TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021)

#305

Post by qzx_pierri » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

oldsklgdfth wrote: post #282

qzx_pierri wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning "undesirable topics" isn't the solution, but only a band-aid. We need to teach children critical thinking skills and allow them to make their own decisions. The former might be easier, but the latter is the most beneficial in the long run.

> We need to teach children critical thinking skills and allow them to make their own decisions The timescale of this process is ~15-20 years. "Critical thinking", "common sense" and "being an adult" all refer someone that has cultivated the ability to filter information independently. I would argue that many 18+ people don't fully develop this skill. See cults, propaganda, conformity for datapoints. I agree that we…

> The timescale of this process is ~15-20 years.

Yes, it won't happen overnight. This requires a culture shift. But banning things to coddle children's mind even further will hinder the process.

> I would argue that many 18+ people don't fully develop this skill. See cults, propaganda, conformity for datapoints.

I agree. Which is why I initially said we should teach children critical thinking skills.

> But MAYBE if you give them a smartphone and social media you should expect this type of result.

This is a parental issue. And if a child has incompetent parents, then no proposed solution matters at the end of the day.

> In general, I think that the move from TV (where CNN had "authority") to the internet (influencers have the power) can explain some social trends that are going on.

?

Re: TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021)

#306

Post by dylan604 » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

addicted wrote: post #274

BurningFrog wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of money to be made from more diagnoses,

This and the parent’s statement is almost entirely wrong. Given 2 statements: 1) Americans don’t seek/receive enough mental healthcare 2) Americans seek/receive too much mental health care no one (other than the old school types who think mental health is simply something for weak people) would pick (2) as true.

You can have mental health care without over prescribing pills. Some people can really benefit from being asked "how does that make you feel" in a place where they can be honest and not have to provide an answer they think is being sought.

Re: TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021)

#307

Post by kortex » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

MichaelCollins wrote: post #153

kortex wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> much of it seems very difficult to falsify It's quite straightforward, albeit involved (as in technically easy, but takes time) to falsify. You have to work with a licensed medical professional who will evaluate traits, strengths, and difficulties, and to what extent they impact functioning as a person in society. Basically, are they "well-adjusted"? If they make it through school, college and adulthood without a t…

> Basically, are they "well-adjusted"? This is so easy to game. People read the diagnostic criteria online and echo it back to their doctor for a prescription. Their proof of needing adjustment can be little more than pointing to their grades and attributing their less than stellar academic performance to the list of ADHD symptoms they memorized online. EZ way to get yourself a stimulant subscription. This was partic…

Gp wrote:

> "By what process can someone reasonably determine that they are NOT neurodivergent?"

You are talking about the opposite detection criteria, false positive vs true negative. I was speaking to "neurodivergence is not falsifiable". You are speaking to "one can fake neurodivergence, esp. to get prescriptions", which, of course, that is definitely a thing.

Of course, if you fake to the doctor that you don't have symptoms, well duh, of course they won't diagnose you. That also has nothing to do with falsifiability. You won't get a correct diagnosis by lying - doctors aren't psychics.

At its very most reduced form, falsifying neurodivergence as a hypothesis means basically demonstrating a single counter-example exists. Can we find someone who made it through high school, learned good study habits on their own, did average to well in college, held down a job, paid the bills, folded their close, made friends and raised a family, all without counseling, special classes, medication, self-medication, masking, hyper-extending themselves (beyond just "working hard"), or burning themselves out just to make ends meet? I think so. Neurodivergence, ADHD, and ASD are falsifiable diagnoses - a true negative result can be obtained.

Re: TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021)

#308

Post by dkarl » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 3:20 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #189

MichaelCollins wrote: post #126

It feels as though our society has collectively forgotten that mental illness can be socially transmissible. I remember in 00s there seemed to be mainstream acknowledgement and concern that anorexia and distorted perception of one's body can be socially transmissible, ripping through teen social cliches particularly, and could be spread through the internet by "pro-ana" websites and chat groups. I don't hear much abo…

The bar also got a lot lower than back then. You jump over the gaps in the tiles on the road? You must have OCD. You broke up with your bf/gf.. you must have depression. You're happy a bit? Bipolar disorder. You're a guy and play with a barbie... trans. Less horny, asexual. And let's not forget a bunch of adhd/autism and other disorders, when a kid gets bored in school. On the other hand, we have professionals (docto…

I think most doctors aren't eager to prescribe the pills, but they have to treat the parents like any other drug-seeking population. It's impossible to get medication to people who need it while denying it to people who don't need it but are determined to get it and know all the right things to say, so you accept there will be some abuse.

Re: TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021)

#309

Post by xwdv » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 3:20 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #188

voidfunc wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

It's very alluring to escape the difficulties and expectations of being a man in society. I don't feel any gender dysphoria, merely ambivalence towards it, but if the process was faster and I wouldn't have to deal with social backlash I'd do it myself. I'd certainly choose to have been born a woman if I could since my main difficulties in life have been in sex and romance, and the difficulty would drop to 0. The extr…

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Re: TikTok videos leave teens thinking they have rare mental disorders (2021)

#310

Post by nkrisc » Mon, Aug 01, 2022, 3:20 PM UTC

noobker wrote: post #199

Akronymus wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not too hard to pick up on multiple identities, you wear one mask with one group, another with a different group. Wouldnt say multiple identities though. But yeah, the mutual reinforcement is a BIG problem.

> you wear one mask with one group, another with a different group. Wouldnt say multiple identities though You're just establishing that for a given persona there is a spectrum from 'Mask' to 'Identity' and insisting that there is an arbitrary threshold. For a moment, embrace a worldview that there is no singular, core Identity -- in fact all personas are masks to some degree. An Identity may be a mask you're particu…

Obviously I don't know how other people feel, but even when I have to project different "identities" in different social situations, I'm still the same person within and just tailoring the output to be appropriate to the settings. I act differently when I'm playing with my son, when I'm at work, when I'm with my wife, etc... But I'm always the same person in all those situations with the same thoughts, the same desires, and can be thinking about those other situations while actively expressing a different "identity" for a different one.

I think the mask analogy is a good one, it feels to me that regardless of what "mask" I'm wearing, I'm still the same, singular person underneath it in all situations. I am only one person, even if I only choose to show selective parts of my personality at different times.