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How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

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Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#91

Post by liquidcool »

orangecat wrote: post #79
liquidcool wrote: post #61

What I'm most curious about is what keeps the demand for drugs in the US so high? If the demand dropped off, so would the supply, prices, and number of criminals. I recognize that I'm a deviant on the other side - I abstain from drugs, alcohol, and smoking. A bias for optimum brain, liver, and lung capacity/health seems like the rational choice. So why do so many forgo that? More pointedly, why do more Americans forg…

I recognize that I'm a deviant on the other side - I abstain from drugs, alcohol, and smoking. Same here and for similar reasons (although I still strongly oppose the WOD). But at least with alcohol, I'm pretty sure the optimal amount isn't zero in our current society. Not drinking has definitely interfered with my social development, which wasn't great to begin with. I don't plan to start now--among other reasons I…

I, too, dislike the taste, although if that's your only issue there are drinks with enough other ingredients to mask it (mudslides, pina coladas, daiquiris, etc.).

Supposedly the max health benefit is 1 drink a day, followed by zero, and more than one is detrimental. However, there are studies that say a glass of red grape juice give similar benefits as one drink. I don't know anybody who follows that advice with any discipline, though.

Not drinking doesn't affect my social enjoyment in the least. First, I find that most professionals (my social group) these days drink less than they did 10 years ago. But I was in a social fraternity in college and have no problem being at parties, bars, clubs, etc. with other people who are drinking. In fact, it's the opposite - I've found my NOT drinking affects the enjoyment of some drinkers. They get self-conscious about it, perhaps guilty. People don't want to drink alone, so if I'm with only one other person they usually won't imbibe. And I've found that those who are actively agitated by my not drinking are those who are alcoholics or marijuana addicts. That's rare, and they stop socializing with me, but I'm dodging a bullet and I'm not at a loss for friends.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#92

Post by adgar »

feralchimp wrote: post #28

The most interesting point in this article (for me) was the argument that disruptive market pressure from methamphetamine (in particular, low barrier to entry on the production side) didn't just show "War on Drugs" activity to be ineffective; it showed it to be orthogonal to meaningful consequences. Production by cartels outpacing interdiction by law enforcement isn't nearly as convincing as an argument for ending Wo…

> Modest proposal: The U.S. needs a Manhattan Project for weed/coke/heroin poppy production. Legality of demand isn't required; production just needs to completely undercut the market value of weed/heroin currently imported to the U.S. (or exported from Afghanistan, for example).

> Beats subsidizing corn for ethanol, at least.

I'm a bit confused by this. Are you suggesting the US produce "weed/coke/heroin poppy" to undercut the cartels? And somehow distribute the manufactured product to users? I've got no problem agreeing with your ethanol joke... but just to be sure, you think the US should produce and distribute drugs, including heroin and cocaine, which are highly, highly addictive?

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#93

Post by zem »

onedognight wrote: post #45
powertower wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ending the WoD? That's only what, about one-third to one-half of all law enforcement (and the prison system)? Do you realize how many jobs there are at stake here. Of course I've got my tongue in my cheek, but you do see the problem with the problem of ending the war on drugs?

> Do you realize how many jobs there are at stake here. Of course. Do you realize how many more people are saddled with the cost of providing those worthless jobs[1]? [1] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Parable_of_th...

the problem with externalities is that the people who don't pay their costs have little incentive not to simply leave them off the books.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#94

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

liquidcool wrote: post #91
orangecat wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recognize that I'm a deviant on the other side - I abstain from drugs, alcohol, and smoking. Same here and for similar reasons (although I still strongly oppose the WOD). But at least with alcohol, I'm pretty sure the optimal amount isn't zero in our current society. Not drinking has definitely interfered with my social development, which wasn't great to begin with. I don't plan to start now--among other reasons I…

I, too, dislike the taste, although if that's your only issue there are drinks with enough other ingredients to mask it (mudslides, pina coladas, daiquiris, etc.). Supposedly the max health benefit is 1 drink a day, followed by zero, and more than one is detrimental. However, there are studies that say a glass of red grape juice give similar benefits as one drink. I don't know anybody who follows that advice with any…

Just to note that those studies that suggest some alcohol is good for you are observational, and they conflate two different kinds of non-drinkers:

1) those who do not drink for personal reasons 2) former alcoholics.

Its quite plausible that the poor health of recovering alcoholics is responsible for the differences in observed health seen in these studies.

I agree with the rest of your post.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#95

Post by ComputerGuru »

feralchimp wrote: post #28

The most interesting point in this article (for me) was the argument that disruptive market pressure from methamphetamine (in particular, low barrier to entry on the production side) didn't just show "War on Drugs" activity to be ineffective; it showed it to be orthogonal to meaningful consequences. Production by cartels outpacing interdiction by law enforcement isn't nearly as convincing as an argument for ending Wo…

I can never tell if people are using "modest proposal" the way it's supposed to be used (highly sarcastic) or the way they think it's supposed to be used ("in my humble opinion"-esque): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#96

Post by achiral »

davidw wrote: post #90
GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A political article that entirely avoids discussion of politicians and partisan politics and has only a tangential reference to public policy?

It's yet another drug article. As a bet, I'll buy you a nice bottle of wine and ship it from Italy if one of those hits the front page of the site without generating a "we should fix the problem by legalizing drugs" discussion.

It's true that drug war articles are fairly off-topic for HN. I'd rather see more mathematics and CS content.

However, I think it's pretty apparent that ending the drug war would benefit more people in much more profound ways than all of the software everyone on HN has ever written. In fact, I'd say only the computer revolution as a whole has benefited humanity more than ending the drug war would.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#97

Post by WayneDB »

adgar wrote: post #92
feralchimp wrote: post #28

The most interesting point in this article (for me) was the argument that disruptive market pressure from methamphetamine (in particular, low barrier to entry on the production side) didn't just show "War on Drugs" activity to be ineffective; it showed it to be orthogonal to meaningful consequences. Production by cartels outpacing interdiction by law enforcement isn't nearly as convincing as an argument for ending Wo…

> Modest proposal: The U.S. needs a Manhattan Project for weed/coke/heroin poppy production. Legality of demand isn't required; production just needs to completely undercut the market value of weed/heroin currently imported to the U.S. (or exported from Afghanistan, for example). > Beats subsidizing corn for ethanol, at least. I'm a bit confused by this. Are you suggesting the US produce "weed/coke/heroin poppy" to u…

The US already does produce and distribute illegal drugs. They just do it in secret. If you think I'm crazy, just search for: CIA Cocaine. They've actually been caught red-handed a few times.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#98

Post by davidw »

achiral wrote: post #96
davidw wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's yet another drug article. As a bet, I'll buy you a nice bottle of wine and ship it from Italy if one of those hits the front page of the site without generating a "we should fix the problem by legalizing drugs" discussion.

It's true that drug war articles are fairly off-topic for HN. I'd rather see more mathematics and CS content. However, I think it's pretty apparent that ending the drug war would benefit more people in much more profound ways than all of the software everyone on HN has ever written. In fact, I'd say only the computer revolution as a whole has benefited humanity more than ending the drug war would.

If you can't think of a list of 10 things in short order that matter a lot more to the world than software and web startups, you're not trying very hard.

But that doesn't mean HN should be dedicated to those things.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#99

Post by Daniel_Newby »

mooism2 wrote: post #22
bestes wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are those people? Politicians? (serious question)

Prison operators and their employees. To a lesser extent police departments and officers.

This I don't understand.

Keeping the prisons full simply means arresting people for behavioral mopery instead of pharmaceutical mopery. As long as the public supports a high incarceration rate, the prison guards unions have a license to print money.

And police departments and officers should likewise dislike the War on Drugs. It takes low staffing levels to investigate whether people have crack in their pockets. Doing, you know, actual investigations of crimes requires considerably higher staffing, plus the toys are way cooler.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#100

Post by wnight »

suking wrote: post #70
defen wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solution: anyone who is going to lose their job because of the end of the war on drugs just continues to receive their current salary until their Social Security retirement age, regardless of whether they take a new job or just stop working. It's the only way you'll get buy in from the lower levels of the prison-industrial complex, and ultimately cheaper than continuing what we have now.

Make them do some other type of gov't job. Post office, making roads, whatever. Paying them to sit on their butts - no thanks.

It's better than paying them to ruin other people's lives.
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