Live data from Hacker News

Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

desertsun.com

91–100 of 347 posts

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#91
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, we'll just grow it in the midwest, ie, the rest of the country. Only reason we grow mostly corn is because of subsidies. That can be easily changed. If you're suggesting CA is the only viable farmland in the country, you are mistaken.

You can't grow any of the mediterranean/mid-east fruit or nut trees in the midwest as they are killed by frost. That rules out most of the stuff that California is famous for exporting - almonds, pistachios, citrus. Many of the ones that do grow won't be commercially competitive - the seasons can be short. And of course, unlike corn, you're going to have to find people to pick all this fruit.

Respectfully disagree. We can engineer the 150k nuts acres to grow just fine. Or Modify the plants to be cold tolerant. We know a lot about Plant genetics and physiology. Just haven’t had the incentive.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#92
As someone who moved to LA in the early 70s, and left LA in the late 80s, and spent some time to visit Palm Springs, Phoenix, and Las Vegas, I can say with full confidence that anyone with a lick of sense knew there was not enough water to sustain that growth that started back then, but that didn't stop anyone from building or buying those homes. They all knew it, but didn't care.

It was, and still is, plain old stupid to build those giant cities in those barren deserts. The idea that we'd all have to pay for pipelines to push that water all those miles feels a bit painful to me now, and the complete lack of any discussion about the environmental impact of doing this very bothersome too.

There are many other issues to consider, like the quality of that Mississippi water. They don't call that river "The Big Muddy" for nothing. And there is still a lot of industry that use and dumped used water into it, and farms that have runoff of pesticides all along it and it's tributaries.

The total driving distance from New Orleans to Las Vegas is 1,722 miles. I doubt you can route a pipeline in a way that reduces that much. The cost and environmental impact of building one would be enormous.

This plan feels like it was concocted by someone who's never driven from Las Vegas to New Orleans, or spent anytime on or around the Mississippi River. It gets low on water too. There are droughts in the mid-west too.

Truth is there is no good sustainable solution to this problem as it exist. The only reasonable solution is to stop building new homes right now, and look into how to reduce the number that exists because it's obvious they've already overbuilt.

It's hard for me to imagine anyone with a lick of sense taking this seriously, but that's a shortcoming of mine I am well aware of nowadays.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#93

If California hasn't lived within its means so far, why do we think that would change after giving them other regions' water?

The article doesn't mention pumping water to California at all. The Colorado River is at the CA SE border, so potentially it could be used, but its a long way from the central valley.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#94
post #42

What about desalination? Would that be more cost effective?

The states in question don’t have oceans to desalinate.

A couple of nuke plants powering desalination and California could be exporting water to the east. Of course, that assumes a willingness to take their water issues seriously - it's not like they haven't seen it coming for several decades and could have all this in operation already.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#95
post #13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California being the 5th largest world GDP if it were its own country, I think it may come out on top pretty easily. Also the home of things we bomb the shit out of people with…

You think CA would still be 5th in GDP without reliable water? Unless desalination becomes more efficient, CA is thirsty.

It looks like agriculture isn't a huge percentage of their economy, so they'd probably still be up there (unless I've misread the chart).

https://www.statista.com/statistics/304869/california-real-g...

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#96
post #45
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

once CA dries up the person above will then complain their food prices rose 4-5x because CA can't produce any food for them anymore. How about CA trades food for water.

Fruits and vegetables existed before the Central Valley you know. CA doesn’t have a monopoly on producing those. I’m fine not eating salad in December if you give all the water back from the Colorado river.

Actually, it is a literal monopoly on many things. For example:

> California produces a sizable majority of many American fruits, vegetables, and nuts: 99 percent of artichokes, 99 percent of walnuts, 97 percent of kiwis, 97 percent of plums, 95 percent of celery, 95 percent of garlic, 89 percent of cauliflower, 71 percent of spinach, and 69 percent of carrots (and the list goes on and on).

Those other states are monocultures of federal subsidies like wheat, cotton or corn.

https://slate.com/technology/2013/07/california-grows-all-of...

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#97

I understand that this is mostly for agriculture, but maybe let's stop building and expanding big cities in the desert. Golf courses in Phoenix, for example, seem like an irresponsible use of water.

Counterpoint: I grew up in the Midwest along the Kankakee river, and most infrastructure is built for flooding, as it can happen year round. Fresh water is not only abundant, there is often too much, and flooded fields and towns are a real problem. I am all for finding ways to move it west where people say they need it and are willing to pay a premium. Cities in the deserts of earth are more feasible than ever with ingenuity and engineering, and will probably always be much easier than building cities on Mars, for example.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#98
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't grow any of the mediterranean/mid-east fruit or nut trees in the midwest as they are killed by frost. That rules out most of the stuff that California is famous for exporting - almonds, pistachios, citrus. Many of the ones that do grow won't be commercially competitive - the seasons can be short. And of course, unlike corn, you're going to have to find people to pick all this fruit.

Respectfully disagree. We can engineer the 150k nuts acres to grow just fine. Or Modify the plants to be cold tolerant. We know a lot about Plant genetics and physiology. Just haven’t had the incentive.

California exports $5bn worth of almonds a year. That's plenty of incentive. What you are talking about is science fiction - it literally doesn't exist. Humanity has been growing almonds for 5000 years and they're still killed by frost. The trees take five years to reach maturity - this is research that takes decades, if not lifetimes.

> We know a lot about Plant genetics and physiology.

lol, no we don't. We can't even make grocery store food that doesn't taste like crap. Sometimes fruit trees skip a season - why? Nobody knows. Sure, we've gotten pretty good at messing around with corn, but it's simple, forgiving, not eaten fresh, and planted from seed every year. It's basically a model organism.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#99
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any region that “lives within its means” for all resources? Why is exporting or importing water so different from electricity, or food, or clothes, or iPhones?

> Is there any region that “lives within its means” for all resources? Why is exporting or importing water so different from electricity, or food, or clothes, or iPhones? Changing the water supply changes the environment of the entire region. It's needed for human survival. Surely you can see how that's different that exporting more or fewer iPhones, right?

That isn’t the argument being made in the comment I replied to.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#100
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there any region that “lives within its means” for all resources? Why is exporting or importing water so different from electricity, or food, or clothes, or iPhones? Changing the water supply changes the environment of the entire region. It's needed for human survival. Surely you can see how that's different that exporting more or fewer iPhones, right?

That isn’t the argument being made in the comment I replied to.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN