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Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

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Re: Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

#171

Post by shepherdjerred »

aldebran wrote: post #111
shepherdjerred wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is willing to sell their dignity (which I guess is now defined by whether or not you urinate in a bottle) then why should we stop them? We’re not talking about safety or child labor where there’s a moral duty to put up guard rails.

As a society we should not create our support creating through inaction an environment where people feel it’s necessary to sell their dignity. Would you agree? Amazon is big enough that it can create systemic problems where free market doesn’t work. If everyone in a town is being run out of business, people feel they have no choice but to take up that job.

> As a society we should not create our support creating through inaction an environment where people feel it’s necessary to sell their dignity. Would you agree?

I would agree, but how do you reconcile that with many desiring legalization of sex work? Surely that is 'worse' than urinating in a bottle?

Does Amazon run other local warehouses 'out of business'? I wouldn't imagine there to be much competition between local warehouses unless there was a shortage of labor.

Re: Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

#172

Post by smegger001 »

adriand wrote: post #160
beloch wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the memo proposed that Amazon should create and foster partnerships with local nonprofits and community organizations that company officials hoped would “provide political cover for local policymakers, neutralize organized labors’ attempts to grow their coalition of third-party validators and spokespeople, and provide a platform for Amazon spokespeople and allies to speak of the true economic and social impact of Am…

It’s also so incredibly cynical. They aren’t supporting these organizations because it’s the right thing to do. It’s just a means to an end, namely preventing workers from organizing. I wonder how many people who called out Amazon’s supposedly enlightened actions as unlikely to be altruistic or genuine were accused of being conspiracy theorists.

Does it matter that their motivation is wrong if it still motivates them to do the right thing? results are what mater.

Re: Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

#173

Post by parineum »

jtode wrote: post #127
parineum wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's everyone but Amazon's fault, in this case.

The people who contribute daily to making our society that way are all indeed culpable. However, the people who opportunistically turn a profit from society being that way are the worst of that collection of people.

> opportunistically turn a profit

Would you have felt the same way when companies started hiring former slaves, chinese, irish, italians, women, etc.? What you're identifying is a market advantage that companies can gain by being non-discriminatory. You've zeroed in on a major strength of free market economics. Bigotry costs companies money.

Re: Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

#174

Post by smegger001 »

iroh2727 wrote: post #164
zugi wrote: post #30

I read the article expecting to see terrible actions by Amazon fighting the union. Instead the article was about the Teamsters union convincing local governments to block Amazon from opening buildings, and Amazon "fighting back" by increasing their hiring of needy ex-cons and minorities from local colleges, ending their marijuana drug tests, and otherwise working to ingratiate themselves with their comminities. The T…

It's not about Amazon's terrible actions fighting the union. It's about Amazon's exploitative labor practices, the day-to-day oppression that warehouse workers have to deal with. Also, let's not forget that Amazon has unlimited funds to cover up and distract from their misdoings while the Teamsters do not. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/feb/05/amazon-wo... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/…

the teamsters union isn't exactly a small underdog with no funding either.

Re: Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

#175

Post by shepherdjerred »

rtpg wrote: post #109
shepherdjerred wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is willing to sell their dignity (which I guess is now defined by whether or not you urinate in a bottle) then why should we stop them? We’re not talking about safety or child labor where there’s a moral duty to put up guard rails.

Because what happens is every single company will start doing this in practice. Not to mention that overworking people to the point that they do not believe they can even take a real rest break is a safety issue.

This already happens at other companies, check the grandparent comment.

I have found a few articles which claim Amazon's contracted delivery drivers (which is a pretty sketchy practice tbh) work 14 hour days.

14 hour days aren't great, but I don't think it's particularly stunning. Nurses regularly work 12 hours shifts and often pick up more hours for overtime pay. Truck drivers drive a maximum of 11 hours a day, which is probably pretty close to what Amazon delivery drivers do once you consider time picking up packages and getting up to deliver them.

If delivery drivers work ~40 hours a week (~3 days a week on, 4 days off) that sounds like a pretty okay arrangement. If they're working 14 hours a day, 5 days a week, then that's rough. Based on some quick Googling it seems like they target a 40 hour work week, but maybe there are some articles of them being pressured/forced to do more.

Re: Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

#176

Post by shepherdjerred »

jjulius wrote: post #119
shepherdjerred wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is willing to sell their dignity (which I guess is now defined by whether or not you urinate in a bottle) then why should we stop them? We’re not talking about safety or child labor where there’s a moral duty to put up guard rails.

>If someone is willing... I'm gonna stop you right there and point out that while nobody ever puts a gun to one's head when it comes to taking a job, it's never that cut and dry. They may not normally be willing, but they may be desperate enough under the right circumstances. That desperation, hell even willingness in and of itself, doesn't justify on-the-job abuses.

I think that there might be some disconnect here. I personally wouldn't want to urinate in a bottle, but it really isn't that big of a deal to me. It's gross, but not something I'd really care about if it meant I got paid decently. There are also purpose-made products for camping that turn urine into a gel.

Of course I say this as a software engineer, so I'm very privileged and probably a bit disconnected from the choices these workers have to make.

Re: Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

#177

Post by DangitBobby »

mechanical_bear wrote: post #121
hospadar wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you're at it ask your corporate boss if you can use his private jet since it is your labor making him wealthy after all. I'm sure he'll be very generous. I agree that powerful people aren't great but it seems ridiculous to imagine that union bosses are the worst offenders.

I think what makes it uniquely terrible is that it comes from someone who claims to be for the little guy, and reeks of hypocrisy. The capitalist is pretty naked about their intent, etc

I'll take the hypocrite who is acting in my best interest over the openly hostile one who is trying to fuck me over.

Re: Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

#178

Post by shepherdjerred »

otikik wrote: post #118
shepherdjerred wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is willing to sell their dignity (which I guess is now defined by whether or not you urinate in a bottle) then why should we stop them? We’re not talking about safety or child labor where there’s a moral duty to put up guard rails.

Because every time something like that gets accepted, that moves the Overton window down, and makes it easier to take the next step. "What if they want to sell one of their kidneys? They are theirs. What if a little action in the backroom is needed for a promotion? They can always say no". We should be building a better society for future generations, not for a few billionaires.

> What if they want to sell one of their kidneys?

I thought of this specifically when I wrote my comment, which is why I added the bit about "moral duty". Selling your kidneys is harmful. There's the inherent risk of surgery, not to mention it's a part of your body that you would otherwise keep.

I think the examples you are giving are things we should protect against, but I do not believe that urinating in a bottle is comparable at all.

You're going to urinate no matter what. The only thing different here is where it is at. Many people choose to go camping and urinate outdoors. Most choose a toilet. Some people (even those that aren't on the clock at an Orwellian-esque company!) choose a bottle when they are desperate, e.g. on a road trip.

Re: Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

#179

Post by dendriti »

smegger001 wrote: post #172
adriand wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also so incredibly cynical. They aren’t supporting these organizations because it’s the right thing to do. It’s just a means to an end, namely preventing workers from organizing. I wonder how many people who called out Amazon’s supposedly enlightened actions as unlikely to be altruistic or genuine were accused of being conspiracy theorists.

Does it matter that their motivation is wrong if it still motivates them to do the right thing? results are what mater.

Well, yes but no. It's good that Amazon is hiring ex-cons and minorities. It's good that Amazon is not testing for weed.

None of those things obviate the need for a union.

Re: Leaked memo reveals Amazon’s plans to combat the Teamsters in California

#180

Post by shepherdjerred »

Retric wrote: post #89
kolbe wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to give some support for this intangible and unverifiable complaint?

Just because you don’t like a statement doesn’t mean it’s unverifiable, objectively: Average Warehouse Worker Hourly Pay “Avg. Base Hourly Rate (USD)” $14.99/ hour and $19.57 is top 10%. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Warehouse_Worker/Ho... As to the job sucking, “Amazon warehouse workers suffer serious injuries at twice the rate of rivals, study finds“ https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/12/study-amazon-workers-s…

You didn't provide any info regarding the workload, but it seems like the injury rate is a legitimate issue. Amazon says that it's getting better in the article, and that it spent $300 million on safety (a very low number considering how much the company makes).
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