Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#231

Post by samsquire » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 1:06 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #122

boffinism wrote: post #4

Dear customers: we know. But our businesses are viable as subscription services, and not as one-off or ad-hoc puchase models. We know because we tried them. So we're catering to the people who are OK with buying a subscription because there are enough of them. Sorry if that doesn't suit you.

That sounds like a cynical take, but is actually close to the truth. The usual take is that businesses are "greedy" and subscription models are "lucrative". The word I'd rather use is "sustainable". Maintaining software (any software) is an ongoing process, not a one-time effort. It needs to be paid for on an ongoing basis. Even a tiny phone app needs regular maintenance work just to stay current with OS and tools de…

What is the breakdown of your software maintenance costs?

One of my ideas is that we should package manage solutions to problems at a level higher than just code and subscribe to them. We all depend on BSD sockets due to history. BSD sockets Just Works™ and people don't really evolve the BSD socket API over time. If only the rest of the software stack was as feature complete as BSD sockets.

Imagine a labour market that was also a package manager.

When library "xyz" upgrades from version 1.2.0 to 1.3.0 there's an interface change that breaks everybody. If there's 1,000 dependents of "xyz" and it takes 1 hour to upgrade and 1 hour to pass all QA tests and get into production, then that upgrade takes 1,000 man hours + 1,000 hours automated testing.

If we don't depend on library "xyz" throughout our codebase, we reduce the number of callsites to change. If we use a facade, they're all in one place. If we use a Service Provider Interface, we isolate ourselves even more and add flexibility of implementation.

If our facade or SPI is in escrow on a labour market, someone can fix it for us for a cost of their time. Ideally the software maintainer fixes it so they don't break so many people.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#232

Post by ghaff » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

bheadmaster wrote: post #91

cpach wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Buying an application is not necessarily like buying a wrench or a shovel.

It should be, though. We have standardized hardware and OS API/ABI. Is it really reasonable for software industry to drain so much money just because it takes some effort to write a program that won't magically rot in a few years?

You're perfectly welcome to keep your computer and its software running in isolation until the end of time or until the hardware fails. You just shouldn't expect to be able to connect to networks that change over time or to run software on new operating systems that address newly discovered security vulnerabilities or that otherwise get updated.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#233

Post by nickjj » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

For technical learning material do you prefer a SAAS model where you pay $10-20 / month for all-in access to short isolated videos in a related subject (potentially ~4 new videos a month) or dropping $50-150 one time for a course that could be anywhere from 3-15 hours long?

It's kind of comparing apples to oranges but as someone who has made courses for a while I've always thought about the idea of doing weekly screencasts instead. HN is one of the best places to ask this sort of question.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#234

Post by julianlam » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 1:09 PM UTC

d13 wrote: post #222

nathan_compton wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is going to use an unpatched bug in your chair to rob your house.

If my unpatched chair breaks because of a manufacturing defect I’ll sue the company.

You would? That seems like an outsized reaction to a broken chair.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#235

Post by chronotis » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 1:10 PM UTC

rajamaka wrote: post #190

chrisseaton wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the software requires continuous updates and a server component and storage and things, this doesn't make any sense.

Seems to work for most video games

Those same pay-once video games also sell season passes, MTX content, expansion packs, and in-game currency.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#236

Post by yunohn » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

Brian_K_White wrote: post #110

danielvaughn wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It blows my mind that there are people in this thread who think that a business should charge once for a product that requires iteration or continued backend support.

If I sold furniture, the designs and manufacturing processes and materials usage all undergo continuous iteration, yet when I sell you your chair, you don't have to keep paying me forever to keep using it. Yes, you also don't get updates to it. That is actually perfectly fine for countless bits of software. I have 30 year old software, and it still does it's original job just fine, if I happen to be ok with all it's…

> you don't have to keep paying me forever to keep using it.

Your analogy is flawed. Rather, you will never indefinitely get the latest quality chair for free after buying it. Nor if tomorrow plastics are banned, they won't replace your chair with wood or metal for free either. And if the fabric wears, they won't replace it for free either.

So, why should software updates be free in a dynamic computing world?

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#237

Post by szastamasta » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

I really liked the old way it used to work. You bought a license for software and got only bugfixes and security patches. Every second year there was a new version released with 50-75% upgrade price for current users.

I totally understand subscriptions for online services that run on provider servers/storage etc. (like Evernote) or content services where you get access to a vast database of always growing content, that you would never afford to buy at once. But stuff like Bear notes, Autodesk Fusion 360, etc. These I don’t understand. If you cannot justify a new version users want to pay for, then don’t make it. I think most users would gladly pay for new features and improvements. Just don’t make them cash cows driving your business model on fear of loss.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#238

Post by shafyy » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 1:14 PM UTC

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #180

Part of the problem is that most of these startups simply have too much overhead to offer their product for free or cheap. Like I never understood why most of these basic tools morph into 100+ people companies. A tool like Evernote can be built and maintained by under 20 people. Even at inflated salaries, your yearly burn would be under $10M. This is part of a broader trend of startup overhiring. Like Better.com had…

> Like I never understood why most of these basic tools morph into 100+ people companies.

Simple answer: They've signed a deal with the devil (VC funding) and now need to grow to make a > 1 billion dollar exit.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#239

Post by Varqu » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 1:14 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #229

Varqu wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking from a consumer perspective, there should be definitely 2 options: 1. You pay for a subscription $X per month and get the newest updates. 2. You pay $Y*X once, but then you are left with the version which you bought in the first place.

Why can't software like a music player or playing podcast function perfectly fine w9thout updates for 10 years. We had same audio formats for 10 years, and same OS audio API.

Well, most software can run perfectly without updates, for example: You can still have a PC running on Windows XP.

Why you might need updates: 1. New functionality (if you need a particular feature that was not available before) 2. Security issues

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#240

Post by varispeed » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 1:15 PM UTC

When I had a gig at a start up, I remember the owner couldn't stop banging about subscriptions. It was the main priority, how to get people to subscribe and anything else was an afterthought. The main idea was that even if people stop using the product, a good % will forget to unsubscribe. I remember something like 30% of users were people who subscribed, used the product for a month or so and then never unsubscribed.