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Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

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Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#71

Post by Dylan16807 »

gigatexal wrote: post #48
Zandikar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a death knell for hard drives if they could actually get it that cheap (~$25/TB). In addition to obvious benefits for consumers, More and more in the enterprise space (which is the dominant buyer of HDD unit purchase volume) HDD's are being regulated to write few, read lots if not outright WORM, and focused on Sequential speeds. You can knock an order of magnitude of speed off modern NAND Flash and stil…

Not really sure about that. Isn’t the write endurance of hard dives still much higher than that of flash?

Not really.

If I go look at some 20TB hard drives, I see them promising 1.5 to 2.5PB of endurance.

On the other hand there are 4TB SSDs promising 5PB of endurance.

In full drive writes that's 75-125 vs. 1250.

Even if you ignore the hard drive warranty, I'd say the maximum reasonable workload is a constant write at 50% of the minimum transfer speed. At that speed you might get over 1000 writes, depending on drive size. It's a struggle to even beat the worst case of a mainstream SSD chosen for endurance.

A QLC SSD will only withstand a couple hundred writes, but even that's moderately competitive.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#72

Post by gigatexal »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #71
gigatexal wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really sure about that. Isn’t the write endurance of hard dives still much higher than that of flash?

Not really. If I go look at some 20TB hard drives, I see them promising 1.5 to 2.5PB of endurance. On the other hand there are 4TB SSDs promising 5PB of endurance. In full drive writes that's 75-125 vs. 1250. Even if you ignore the hard drive warranty, I'd say the maximum reasonable workload is a constant write at 50% of the minimum transfer speed. At that speed you might get over 1000 writes, depending on drive size…

Hmm. Thanks for sharing. Definitely food for thought.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#73

Post by rasz »

londons_explore wrote: post #70
rasz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I envy you. All I read there was "write endurance and data retention halved again"

I don't see these as problems as long as software is smart enough. It merely requires the device to be always powered up (read: has a backup battery that can do periodic flash rewrites for 5 years). And it requires the controller to keep track of the current endurance of every page. A 'worn out' page can still hold data, it just holds either less data, or holds that data for fewer hours before needing to be rewritten…

>or double the ECC bits

Are you aware of even a single ssd product allowing user to reconfigure capacity outside of obtaining secret/proprietary non public manufacturer service software? The only technical way for a drive to automagically shrink size on its own is by starting to mark TRIM freed sectors as BAD and hoping OS running on top will be able to recognize this and transfer BAD status to the filesystem - thats a lot of assumptions. No such drive exists either, drives ship with spare capacity and existence of BAD sectors is treated as a catastrophic event signaling running out of backup NAND.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#74

Post by oblak »

londons_explore wrote: post #70
rasz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I envy you. All I read there was "write endurance and data retention halved again"

I don't see these as problems as long as software is smart enough. It merely requires the device to be always powered up (read: has a backup battery that can do periodic flash rewrites for 5 years). And it requires the controller to keep track of the current endurance of every page. A 'worn out' page can still hold data, it just holds either less data, or holds that data for fewer hours before needing to be rewritten…

It's amazing to me how you don't consider any of these major drawbacks as problems. The Samsung 840 evo was a disaster and here we are celebrating more of the same.

While I completely agree endurance can - and it is - be managed with software, rewriting data every 20 days is a major, major drawback. To me, it is a regress

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#75

Post by jiggawatts »

Aeolun wrote: post #56
ardit33 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to go even that far. The minimum hardware requirements for Microsoft Windows 95 were: A personal computer with a 386DX, 20MHz or higher processor, 4MB of memory (8MB recommended) At least 70MB of available hard disk space for installation A hard drive at the time, had 250-500MB space. Not even 1GB (that was a luxury), This not even 1/4000 of this small chip. So, you have stack 4000 of those Windows 95…

Honestly, what I think is more amazing is how far we didn’t come given the enormous increase in processing power. Windows 95 was pretty good for it’s time, but windows 11 isn’t essentially different.

> windows 11 isn’t essentially different

That's only if you ignore all of the differences! 8)

There are many big and small differences that people just gloss over, because they feel it doesn't apply to them, or they don't even realise it's there.

Windows 95 used to crash if you looked at it wrong. It was horrendously vulnerable to malware, even across the network. Its "maximums" were hilariously low due to many remaining 16-bit internals. Programming for it was a PITA, even in 32-bit mode. Its network capabilities were woeful. Multilingual? Yes, but only in some combinations at a time. No hope of mixing, say, Chinese and Hebrew in a single text box. Poor text input in general, poor accessibility, etc, etc, etc...

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#77

Post by szundi »

oblak wrote: post #74
londons_explore wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see these as problems as long as software is smart enough. It merely requires the device to be always powered up (read: has a backup battery that can do periodic flash rewrites for 5 years). And it requires the controller to keep track of the current endurance of every page. A 'worn out' page can still hold data, it just holds either less data, or holds that data for fewer hours before needing to be rewritten…

It's amazing to me how you don't consider any of these major drawbacks as problems. The Samsung 840 evo was a disaster and here we are celebrating more of the same. While I completely agree endurance can - and it is - be managed with software, rewriting data every 20 days is a major, major drawback. To me, it is a regress

We can live with DRAM. Ok. But I cannot have my computer turned off for 3 weeks though? Or I lose data?

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#78

Post by tlamponi »

ksec wrote: post #14

A much better article on Anandtech [1]. Dual Stack 116 Layers. And as noted inside the article 100+ layer per stack isn't exactly new. Personally I am interested in Cost per Bit reduction. Hopefully there will be news in Flash Memory Summit new week. I wouldn't mind to have a slow 100 write cycle NAND that cost a third of today's price. Think 2TB USB Stick for $49. [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/17509/microns-232…

> And as noted inside the article 100+ layer per stack isn't exactly new.

Per deck, not stack. The current prevalent 176 (total) Layer consists also of two 88 Layer decks, as the same article mentions (check the table) so 116 layers per deck is new!

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#79

Post by tlamponi »

AnonMO wrote: post #76

Why is micron constantly first to market with new high density nand, but their market share doesn’t reflect their progress. Unless I’m miss informed.

Note that Crucial also belongs to Micron and some other vendors may also use their controllers and/or chips, there aren't that many companies that actually can make those high-end NAND chips end-to-end (Micron, Samsung, WD and Intel, IIRC).

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#80

Post by kken »

anewpersonality wrote: post #43

Amazing. Here we have a tier 2/3 company actually innovating, yet the engineers getting paid peanuts

How is Micron a "tier 2" company? They are probably the oldest surviving DRAM company and have always been in the TOP5.

No idea about their payment, but i met some of the engineers who work there and they are extremely dedidcated. I don't think they are shopping around for other opportunities to maximize they pay, like it seems common in the bay area.

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