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Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

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Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#41

Post by agumonkey »

metadat wrote: post #38
jiggawatts wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And affordable for common people. I remember tiny “spy cameras” being a movie trope, now everyone has one in their pocket.

Yeah, human technological progress has come a long way! The human mind acclimates to improvements remarkably fast, and the joy found in such novelties tends to be fleeting and quickly fade as it becomes just another normal part of everyday life we take for granted (e.g. fancy new tech, or really anything new and nice). I like to frequently reflect on how amazing it is I am alive and even exist at all! Gratitude is tr…

I have a different stance, I go frugal and away from tech. Because at some point I become confused by the quantities involved and the lack of joy.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#42

Post by 14 »

metadat wrote: post #38
jiggawatts wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And affordable for common people. I remember tiny “spy cameras” being a movie trope, now everyone has one in their pocket.

Yeah, human technological progress has come a long way! The human mind acclimates to improvements remarkably fast, and the joy found in such novelties tends to be fleeting and quickly fade as it becomes just another normal part of everyday life we take for granted (e.g. fancy new tech, or really anything new and nice). I like to frequently reflect on how amazing it is I am alive and even exist at all! Gratitude is tr…

What is truly amazing is all our devices have been hampered by copyright laws and competing interests. On my iPhone I can’t load a YouTube song then switch over to Snapchat and start a video call while listening to that song. That is just one example. There are many many more. But we have been trained to thing <40% is the normal. This is why for years I followed the jailbreak scene because there was so many cool features one could get by jailbreaking that just wasn’t offered to normal users.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#44

Post by mgerdts »

kmeisthax wrote: post #40
Melatonic wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am really interested long term in longevity. I am sure they will keep increasing speeds and decreasing prices but what about this stuff wearing out? NAND that can last for as long as a well cooled and unstressed CPU would be epic!

NAND wear is a function of write cycles, which itself is a function of both how much data you write and how much the controller's wear-levelling and garbage collection amplifies those writes. If your benchmark is "lasting as long as well-cooled electronics" then flash already beats hard drives; since hard drives have bearings that will lose lubrication and fail until you open the drive up in a clean room and replace…

And NAND has an electrical charge that will dissipate, eventually leading to data loss. This time period is on the order of 90 days (I think I’ve seen some data sheets saying 30 days) up to one year.

https://www.jedec.org/sites/default/files/Alvin_Cox%20%5BCom...

https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/potential-ssd-data-loss-af...

The OCP NVMe Cloud SSD Specification states that drives must not have data loss when powered off for up to 30 days and that when powered on data must me rewritten to refresh data that may have started to lose charge while powered off. Search for retention in:

https://www.opencompute.org/documents/nvme-cloud-ssd-specifi...

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#45

Post by mgerdts »

mritun wrote: post #7
lazide wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind, these are layers of cells, not multi-level cells. Each of the layers has an individual multi-level cell. That said, Samsung quad-level cells only have 1k write lifetime, so likely not far off.

Remember, even 1000 writes means roughly 3Y of full drive writes per day with the naïve wear leveling and the most brutal write load. For most write loads the drives made of this kind of NAND can be easily warranted for 3Y.

This doesn’t account for the write amplification factor, which is quite unlikely to be 1 with a naive wear leveling implementation and the most brutal write workload.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#46

Post by tambourine_man »

femto wrote: post #30
ineedasername wrote: post #26

Is there a (known) theoretical limit on density/mm^3?

The Bekenstein bound? A maximum number of bits can be placed on the surface of sphere. Beyond that it turns into a black hole. Mind you, one or two other practical limits might come into play before a memory chip hits that one. :-) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekenstein_bound --- Edit: The maximum information capacity of a radio antenna is limited by the surface area enclosing the antenna. One could theorise th…

I think we would be in trouble way before that. Quantum effects would mean you would change a decent percentage of adjacent bits while setting one. We’re probably struggling with such effects already.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#47

Post by B1FF_PSUVM »

Zandikar wrote: post #20
ksec wrote: post #14

A much better article on Anandtech [1]. Dual Stack 116 Layers. And as noted inside the article 100+ layer per stack isn't exactly new. Personally I am interested in Cost per Bit reduction. Hopefully there will be news in Flash Memory Summit new week. I wouldn't mind to have a slow 100 write cycle NAND that cost a third of today's price. Think 2TB USB Stick for $49. [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/17509/microns-232…

That would be a death knell for hard drives if they could actually get it that cheap (~$25/TB). In addition to obvious benefits for consumers, More and more in the enterprise space (which is the dominant buyer of HDD unit purchase volume) HDD's are being regulated to write few, read lots if not outright WORM, and focused on Sequential speeds. You can knock an order of magnitude of speed off modern NAND Flash and stil…

> wouldn't kill HDD's overnight

What's killing HDDs for me - looking at desktop use - is noise. Seems it got weirder lately, with wear-levelling ringing in every five seconds, etc.

Today I just "rebuilt" a brand new HP box by adding RAM and swapping the original 512 GB M2 SSD for a 2 TB one (Crucial P5 Plus, nice specs). Thinking of adding a 6 or 8 TB HDD for data landfill, but most any customer review mentions aggravating disk noise.

So, holding off the landfill for a while, peering at SATA SSD prices ...

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#48

Post by gigatexal »

Zandikar wrote: post #20
ksec wrote: post #14

A much better article on Anandtech [1]. Dual Stack 116 Layers. And as noted inside the article 100+ layer per stack isn't exactly new. Personally I am interested in Cost per Bit reduction. Hopefully there will be news in Flash Memory Summit new week. I wouldn't mind to have a slow 100 write cycle NAND that cost a third of today's price. Think 2TB USB Stick for $49. [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/17509/microns-232…

That would be a death knell for hard drives if they could actually get it that cheap (~$25/TB). In addition to obvious benefits for consumers, More and more in the enterprise space (which is the dominant buyer of HDD unit purchase volume) HDD's are being regulated to write few, read lots if not outright WORM, and focused on Sequential speeds. You can knock an order of magnitude of speed off modern NAND Flash and stil…

Not really sure about that. Isn’t the write endurance of hard dives still much higher than that of flash?
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