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Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

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Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#61

Post by hulitu »

Zandikar wrote: post #20
ksec wrote: post #14

A much better article on Anandtech [1]. Dual Stack 116 Layers. And as noted inside the article 100+ layer per stack isn't exactly new. Personally I am interested in Cost per Bit reduction. Hopefully there will be news in Flash Memory Summit new week. I wouldn't mind to have a slow 100 write cycle NAND that cost a third of today's price. Think 2TB USB Stick for $49. [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/17509/microns-232…

That would be a death knell for hard drives if they could actually get it that cheap (~$25/TB). In addition to obvious benefits for consumers, More and more in the enterprise space (which is the dominant buyer of HDD unit purchase volume) HDD's are being regulated to write few, read lots if not outright WORM, and focused on Sequential speeds. You can knock an order of magnitude of speed off modern NAND Flash and stil…

Taking into account that they don't say anything about data retention and reliability, i wouldn't hold my breath.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#62

Post by rasz »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #33

I see phrases like this "doubles the density of bits stored per unit area versus competing chips, packing in 14.6 gigabits per square millimeter. Its 1-terabit chips are bundled into 2-terabyte packages, each of which is barely more than a centimeter on a side" and I just imagine sending this sentence back to my 12 year old self, sitting in front of my Commodore VIC-20 and imagine how science fiction that would sound…

I envy you. All I read there was "write endurance and data retention halved again"

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#63

Post by rasz »

Robotbeat wrote: post #2

At what point will the wear resistance be so low from increasing the layers (and bits) per cell that flash becomes effectively write-once, read many (WORM)?

> write-once, read many

but not too many, read disturb is also a NAND problem.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#64

Post by visarga »

metadat wrote: post #38
jiggawatts wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And affordable for common people. I remember tiny “spy cameras” being a movie trope, now everyone has one in their pocket.

Yeah, human technological progress has come a long way! The human mind acclimates to improvements remarkably fast, and the joy found in such novelties tends to be fleeting and quickly fade as it becomes just another normal part of everyday life we take for granted (e.g. fancy new tech, or really anything new and nice). I like to frequently reflect on how amazing it is I am alive and even exist at all! Gratitude is tr…

> The human mind acclimates to improvements remarkably fast, and the joy found in such novelties tends to be fleeting and quickly fade as it becomes just another normal part of everyday life we take for granted

This is why I am not afraid automation is going to render us without jobs. We're going to get accustomed with better, and still need to work. AI exponential increase can't keep up with human entitlement.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#65

Post by visarga »

usrusr wrote: post #58
Aeolun wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The human mind acclimates to improvements remarkably fast, and the joy found in such novelties tends to be fleeting and quickly fade as it becomes just another normal part of everyday life The good (?) news is that this also works in reverse. So if we ever suffer a serious downgrade in living standards it’s not a serious issue. We’ll get used to it in no time :)

Does it? I get painfully nostalgic even about stuff that was objectively worse, don't even want to try to imagine how it must be with things that were better.

I get nostalgic too, but it's about my once young age that is forever in the past.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#66

Post by Dylan16807 »

rasz wrote: post #62
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #33

I see phrases like this "doubles the density of bits stored per unit area versus competing chips, packing in 14.6 gigabits per square millimeter. Its 1-terabit chips are bundled into 2-terabyte packages, each of which is barely more than a centimeter on a side" and I just imagine sending this sentence back to my 12 year old self, sitting in front of my Commodore VIC-20 and imagine how science fiction that would sound…

I envy you. All I read there was "write endurance and data retention halved again"

I have no idea why you'd read that when the cells are the same size as before.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#67

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #55
gigatexal wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really sure about that. Isn’t the write endurance of hard dives still much higher than that of flash?

Yes. Flash can’t be stored unused for long periods without losing data.

isn't tape better here?

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#68

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

mgerdts wrote: post #45
mritun wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember, even 1000 writes means roughly 3Y of full drive writes per day with the naïve wear leveling and the most brutal write load. For most write loads the drives made of this kind of NAND can be easily warranted for 3Y.

This doesn’t account for the write amplification factor, which is quite unlikely to be 1 with a naive wear leveling implementation and the most brutal write workload.

note that there are data structures (eg b epsilon trees) that can guarantee a write amplification factor of log_b(disk size) for very large b (over 1000). this means that if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of sequential read speed, you can guarantee write amplification of no more than 4 (with a few mb of RAM).

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#70

Post by londons_explore »

rasz wrote: post #62
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #33

I see phrases like this "doubles the density of bits stored per unit area versus competing chips, packing in 14.6 gigabits per square millimeter. Its 1-terabit chips are bundled into 2-terabyte packages, each of which is barely more than a centimeter on a side" and I just imagine sending this sentence back to my 12 year old self, sitting in front of my Commodore VIC-20 and imagine how science fiction that would sound…

I envy you. All I read there was "write endurance and data retention halved again"

I don't see these as problems as long as software is smart enough.

It merely requires the device to be always powered up (read: has a backup battery that can do periodic flash rewrites for 5 years). And it requires the controller to keep track of the current endurance of every page. A 'worn out' page can still hold data, it just holds either less data, or holds that data for fewer hours before needing to be rewritten.

Long gone are the days of "you can rewrite this data 100,000 times, and then leave it 10 years and it'll still be there". The new normal is "rewrite this data every 20 days to begin with, and after doing 1000 writes you'll need to rewrite the data every hour, or double the ECC bits and then you'll need to rewrite every day".

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