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Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

theatlantic.com

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Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#131

Post by unmole »

thejackgoode wrote: post #24

If you're interested in some constructive arguments why this article is wrong, please see a thread: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1516162437455654913.html

So, the arguments are:

1. Pushkin supported the Russian unitary empire and subjugation of Ukraine.

2. Pushkin was instrumental in the development of the modern Russian language and is thus seen as symbolising the forced linguistic homogenisation imposed on Ukrainians.

The first argument has some explaining power as to why Ukrainians wouldn't want to have a Pushkin memorial.

The second argument is presented with a helping of founding myth: Russians are a homogeneous blob of NPCs, Ukrainians are autonomous and diverse individuals. This is a weak argument.

For a thread that rails about conflating history with modern reality, it strangely sidesteps contemporary linguistic politics. The modern Russian state has federal divisions specifically for non-Russian ethnic groups called republics which are distinct from oblasts i.e. provinces. And these republics established official languages of their own as expressly allowed by the Russian constitution. Ukraine on the other hand clamped down on the use of Russian and Hungarian. Ukrainian is a co-official language in Russian occupied Crimea but Russian has no official status anywhere in Ukraine.

And considering how unnecessarily long-winded the thread is, I wouldn't say it was particularly constructive.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#132

Post by throwaway_4ever »

dynamic_sausage wrote: post #107
UIUC_06 wrote: post #52

As someone who's read Anna Karenina three times and yet despises anyone in Russia who puts up a Z, or who idolizes Stalin. The cleanest way out is to separate them. The work of art stands on its own, and you can't critique The Epic of Gilgamesh by complaining that they still had slaves back then and there was no health care system. I haven't read Pushkin, not being into poetry OR speaking Russian, but if Pushkin said…

See, this is a really interesting point there: do we separate the speaker and the speech, or do we lump them together? I.e., if a Hitler (you saw that coming) says something demonstrably true, while a Pope (yep) says something demonstrably false — who do we agree with? Working out an answer to this question in a clear form has repercussions for the cancel culture, institutions created by slave owners, etc, etc, etc.…

Heidegger was a big one

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#133

Post by kieselguhr_kid »

qaq wrote: post #110
kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two major critiques here: 1. There's no reason to think the criminal invasion of Ukraine will result in victory for Ukraine. The Russians will fall short of their maximal goals, but they're having significant battlefield successes now. Sometimes, criminal invasions are completely successful. In this case, I suspect that a long, low-intensity conflict with two entrenched sides is the most likely outcome. 2. Thi…

I have 1 major critique: What "major" battlefield successes?

The taking of Mariupol, all of Luhansk and most of Donetsk have been successes. They've been hard fought, grinding successes, but successes nonetheless.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#135

Post by dang »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #26

[flagged]

You can't use HN for nationalistic flamewar, and we ban accounts that do, so please don't post like this again.

I realize that other commenters have been doing it in this thread, too, but your comments stand out as particularly hellish, between this one and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32240516, which I can't believe anyone would post to HN—at least not any user with an established commenting history.

Of course I understand that there are deep emotions here, deep history, and also that there is a war going on which not only touches on these wounds but reopens them wide. Nevertheless you can't post like this to Hacker News, for reasons that should be clear if you review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Please review the guidelines and don't do this again.

There's another point, too. You've posted the same kind of thing in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31997340 on a completely unrelated topic. In other words, this pattern of breaking the guidelines isn't just about the understandable emotions of the current moment—it also exists separately from that. So please correct this pattern, not just on one topic, but on all of them.

You're a good HN user otherwise and welcome here, but we can't allow accounts to be good users some of the time and burn the place down other times.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#136

Post by kieselguhr_kid »

riku_iki wrote: post #127
kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two major critiques here: 1. There's no reason to think the criminal invasion of Ukraine will result in victory for Ukraine. The Russians will fall short of their maximal goals, but they're having significant battlefield successes now. Sometimes, criminal invasions are completely successful. In this case, I suspect that a long, low-intensity conflict with two entrenched sides is the most likely outcome. 2. Thi…

> There have been at least three invasions and occupations that are significantly worse crimes: the US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the Saudi-led invasion of Yemen. All three have led to the total destruction and failure of the invaded state Your opinion is very one-sided and misses many details: - Iraq is currently relatively peaceful democracy after decades of tirany and wars (Iran-Iraq war caused 1M deat…

No post body was provided.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#137

Post by kergonath »

Ekaros wrote: post #90
icambron wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this is right. Germany, for example, has 9 countries on its borders and a blood-curdling history, and it’s a very pleasant place now. The idea that a country of 145M people lacking the agency to move forward doesn’t pass the smell test. I think it’s clear that Russia has some deeply-seated cultural problems that fuel this kind of thing. None of this, of course, makes the banishment of Russian cultural p…

Germany had good reasons for their actions in last century. Just remember the aggressions from likes of France... Historically thinking Ukraine is just continuation of constant wars in Europe.

> Just remember the aggressions from likes of France

What? We must not have the same history books. In none of the French-German wars was the German side (or Prussia before that, or the HRE even before) an innocent victim.

And, to be clear, everyone sleepwalked into WWI, sure (though it wasn’t France’s fault any more than Germany’s), but there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for WWII. I cannot believe someone would even write that.

> Historically thinking Ukraine is just continuation of constant wars in Europe.

I grant you that. Though Russia’s justifications are about as credible as Hitler’s were.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#138

Post by dang »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #111
cpursley wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that bigotry is now okay towards all Russians?

Quoted post unavailable.

If you continue to post like this to HN, we will ban you. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32240838.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#139

Post by ROTMetro »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #70
cpursley wrote: post #36

A good read for folks riding on the anti-all-things-Russia bandwagon right now or for people with a more nuanced view trying to understand where the Russian stereotypes, tropes and general bigotry originate from: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34237648-creating-russop...

That book might have been relevent in 2005 but throw it out the window now. All anti-Russian sentiment in the world is due to the fact Russia is literally engaging in genocide against Ukrainians, right now.

As someone with a Russian grandfather, who read all the classics, who took his daughter to the traveling Russian ballet each year where she waited after the show to take the ballerinas flowers, and then was motivated to learn ballet herself, I have HUGE attachments to Russia and Russian culture. But just like my russian speaking Ukrainian friends who called themselves 'Russians from Ukraine' prior to this war but now are just Ukrainian, the war changed everything.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#140

Post by unmole »

riku_iki wrote: post #127
kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two major critiques here: 1. There's no reason to think the criminal invasion of Ukraine will result in victory for Ukraine. The Russians will fall short of their maximal goals, but they're having significant battlefield successes now. Sometimes, criminal invasions are completely successful. In this case, I suspect that a long, low-intensity conflict with two entrenched sides is the most likely outcome. 2. Thi…

> There have been at least three invasions and occupations that are significantly worse crimes: the US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the Saudi-led invasion of Yemen. All three have led to the total destruction and failure of the invaded state Your opinion is very one-sided and misses many details: - Iraq is currently relatively peaceful democracy after decades of tirany and wars (Iran-Iraq war caused 1M deat…

No post body was provided.
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