Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 251 posts

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#81

Post by Veen »

azangru wrote: post #25
vlyubin wrote: post #13

A Ukrainian here - couldn't disagree more with the author. Take a beloved in the West author like Solzhenitsyn, whose "compassion" suddenly evaporates when Ukrainian question is raised. Even a modern sci-fi author Sergei Lukyanenko does not shy away from racial jokes against Ukrainians or Lithuanians in his Dozor books. Ukraine is a pawn at the world stage, but if the West is serious about battling russia (for its ow…

> Take a beloved in the West author like Solzhenitsyn, whose "compassion" suddenly evaporates when Ukrainian question is raised. Solzhenitsin is one of the best literary chroniclers of repressions in the Soviet Russia (One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, The Gulag Archipelago, In the First Circle), with the degree of earnestness and realism that approaches Tolstoy's. How does his compassion to Ukranians, or lack…

> How does his compassion to Ukranians, or lack thereof, change that?

Surely you can understand why it matters to Ukrainians?

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#82

Post by icambron »

AlbertCory wrote: post #68
sssilver wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me wonder, is it possible that the pool of solutions available to Russia's leaders is objectively limited due to Russia's geopolitical and sociopolitical realities and they really don't have too much of a rational choice?

That's a point that deserves deeper study. They have (from memory) 13 countries on their borders, and almost no "natural" borders, e.g. rivers or mountain ranges. They have a history that's blood-curdling. Expecting a new czar to make it like Denmark is a bit much. The West tried in the 90s, and Boris Yeltsin is not remembered fondly over there. The emergence of gangster capitalism was the result.

I don’t think this is right. Germany, for example, has 9 countries on its borders and a blood-curdling history, and it’s a very pleasant place now. The idea that a country of 145M people lacking the agency to move forward doesn’t pass the smell test. I think it’s clear that Russia has some deeply-seated cultural problems that fuel this kind of thing.

None of this, of course, makes the banishment of Russian cultural products (especially old ones) any more reasonable. We’ve got to get better at separation of concerns.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#83

Post by cpursley »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #70
cpursley wrote: post #36

A good read for folks riding on the anti-all-things-Russia bandwagon right now or for people with a more nuanced view trying to understand where the Russian stereotypes, tropes and general bigotry originate from: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34237648-creating-russop...

That book might have been relevent in 2005 but throw it out the window now. All anti-Russian sentiment in the world is due to the fact Russia is literally engaging in genocide against Ukrainians, right now.

Are you suggesting that bigotry is now okay towards all Russians?

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#84

Post by kieselguhr_kid »

atemerev wrote: post #51

I am Russian. We will discuss the problems with Russian culture after the end of the war (with the Ukrainian victory, of course). For now, our time would be better spent not mourning Russian culture, but helping Ukrainians and learning how to fight the criminal Russian regime. When my country has begun the greatest atrocity of our generation, there are now more urgent things to do than write articles about the loss o…

I have two major critiques here:

1. There's no reason to think the criminal invasion of Ukraine will result in victory for Ukraine. The Russians will fall short of their maximal goals, but they're having significant battlefield successes now. Sometimes, criminal invasions are completely successful. In this case, I suspect that a long, low-intensity conflict with two entrenched sides is the most likely outcome.

2. This is not the greatest atrocity of our generation. There have been at least three invasions and occupations that are significantly worse crimes: the US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the Saudi-led invasion of Yemen. All three have led to the total destruction and failure of the invaded state. Ukraine has lost territory and there has been substantial suffering, but it has not been nearly on the same scale and the social disruption has not, at least yet, been anywhere near as significant.

I bring this up because moral consistency is important. Just as we should endorse the right of the Ukrainians to defend themselves from criminal aggression, we must also endorse the same rights for other peoples. And we should be making the same calls, or not, for the aggressor states in these crimes to have their cultural influences purged from law-abiding societies.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#85

Post by Mikeb85 »

atemerev wrote: post #51

I am Russian. We will discuss the problems with Russian culture after the end of the war (with the Ukrainian victory, of course). For now, our time would be better spent not mourning Russian culture, but helping Ukrainians and learning how to fight the criminal Russian regime. When my country has begun the greatest atrocity of our generation, there are now more urgent things to do than write articles about the loss o…

> For example, volunteering to help Ukrainians, donating money to their cause

And people are doing all those things. People also volunteered to fight and die with them, countries are sending them weapons.

It's not taking away from any of those things.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#86

Post by aenis »

azangru wrote: post #25
vlyubin wrote: post #13

A Ukrainian here - couldn't disagree more with the author. Take a beloved in the West author like Solzhenitsyn, whose "compassion" suddenly evaporates when Ukrainian question is raised. Even a modern sci-fi author Sergei Lukyanenko does not shy away from racial jokes against Ukrainians or Lithuanians in his Dozor books. Ukraine is a pawn at the world stage, but if the West is serious about battling russia (for its ow…

> Take a beloved in the West author like Solzhenitsyn, whose "compassion" suddenly evaporates when Ukrainian question is raised. Solzhenitsin is one of the best literary chroniclers of repressions in the Soviet Russia (One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, The Gulag Archipelago, In the First Circle), with the degree of earnestness and realism that approaches Tolstoy's. How does his compassion to Ukranians, or lack…

I think the point OP was trying to make was that due to A.S. demonstrated disdain for the Ukrainians his books deserve a boycot.

Cant disagree more. To understand modern day Russia one needs to have read Solzchenitsyn's books. The country today is a product of decades of strong negative selection favouring the immoral and strongly discouraging moral acts. Those who live in Moscow and make up the modern Russia are the descendants of those who successfully navigated the communist opressions. The westerners should read the books to understand what that meant. There would be far less surprises at the deeply immoral acts of russian govt had the likes of Merkel bothered to read and reflect. Boycotting such books would do Russia a favor.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#87

Post by ianai »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #30
mmmpop wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't blame some Ukrainians for feeling the way that they do I can certainly see why they're upset but it's a problem with Russia's leader at the time, and not the culture right? If it's a long-standing cultural issue then I'd imagine some introspection would also be required, which seems like it may undermine the whole notion.

Frankly, we have been having problems with Russian leaders for the last couple centuries or three.

Thousand years, iirc

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#88

Post by k_bx »

lordleft wrote: post #2

Apart from the abstract conviction that we should not indict the cultural output of a country that is under the thrall of an oligarch, I'm a bit baffled at the notion of decrying Tolstoy of people -- a Christian anarchist who radically challenged all of the assumptions of Tsarist Russia. Basically all of the great Russian writers lived in opposition to the various incarnations of the Russian State (Tsarist Russia, US…

[flagged]

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#89

Post by cudgy »

lbrito wrote: post #75
vlyubin wrote: post #13

A Ukrainian here - couldn't disagree more with the author. Take a beloved in the West author like Solzhenitsyn, whose "compassion" suddenly evaporates when Ukrainian question is raised. Even a modern sci-fi author Sergei Lukyanenko does not shy away from racial jokes against Ukrainians or Lithuanians in his Dozor books. Ukraine is a pawn at the world stage, but if the West is serious about battling russia (for its ow…

I'm baffled how this seems only to apply to the Ukraine this one time. Any meaningful discussion is labeled "whataboutism" and dismissed. You will surely agree with me that Russia is not the world's pioneer in wars of aggression. What about (oh no, whataboutism! We can safely dismiss the argument without thinking now) all the other countries that did, and do the same? Should we also dismiss their cultural output? I'm…

Well said. The blinders that ignore the equally abhorrent wars and policy of NATO and the US placed upon much of the discourse regarding the Ukraine situation are glaringly obvious yet somehow ignored.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#90

Post by Ekaros »

icambron wrote: post #82
AlbertCory wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a point that deserves deeper study. They have (from memory) 13 countries on their borders, and almost no "natural" borders, e.g. rivers or mountain ranges. They have a history that's blood-curdling. Expecting a new czar to make it like Denmark is a bit much. The West tried in the 90s, and Boris Yeltsin is not remembered fondly over there. The emergence of gangster capitalism was the result.

I don’t think this is right. Germany, for example, has 9 countries on its borders and a blood-curdling history, and it’s a very pleasant place now. The idea that a country of 145M people lacking the agency to move forward doesn’t pass the smell test. I think it’s clear that Russia has some deeply-seated cultural problems that fuel this kind of thing. None of this, of course, makes the banishment of Russian cultural p…

Germany had good reasons for their actions in last century. Just remember the aggressions from likes of France... Historically thinking Ukraine is just continuation of constant wars in Europe.
Post reply on HN