Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok • Hacker News Board

Re: Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok

#31

Post by lrvick » Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 4:14 AM UTC

chii wrote: post #25

jondwillis wrote: post #13

TikTok and Facebook’s antics (existence?) have me seriously considering quitting tech. I feel like no matter what I do, I am feeding one of these societal cancers by implementing tracking for whoever is paying me currently, lifting dark patterns, etc, using the API of Google… I tried to avoid doing these things for awhile but nobody pays me to be ethical. My only marketable skill is software development and I pretty…

> I tried to avoid doing these things for awhile but nobody pays me to be ethical. it's because any way to make money that is currently legal (but some might consider unethical) is the fittest agent in the darwinian natural selection of economic competition. So any ethical businesses who forgo a more profitable, but slightly less ethical method, would be out-competed. Over time, therefore, what remains must be busine…

It is not up to the law to set the standard. That is giving people ethical permission to sell their skill to the highest bidder.

No one makes you work for casinos, big pharma, anti-human-rights political groups, or surveillance capitalism companies.

If you work for an unethical company you share responsibility for the harm they do.

If a company you work for is behaving unethically, quit, and find another job. I promise it is an option.

Re: Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok

#32

Post by lrvick » Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 4:15 AM UTC

jondwillis wrote: post #17

bigDinosaur wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of jobs that don't require you to implement tracking/evil things. There's very possibly a pay cut in doing so..

I should specify that I am an iOS engineer.

Those skillsets can be rapidly translated to create things for non-walled-garden platforms.

Re: Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok

#33

Post by beej71 » Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 4:16 AM UTC

I had just installed the web app version of Instagram with UBO enabled in Firefox. It was a radically changed experience, for the better. I had stopped using the native app some time before.

But it sounds like this is the end of that. So... Bye!

Re: Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok

#34

Post by LeonTheremin » Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 4:18 AM UTC

To evade the dark pattern use a proxy like ProxiTok/Bibliogram and read them from your feed reader, customized as you prefer.

Re: Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok

#35

Post by jondwillis » Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 4:19 AM UTC

lrvick wrote: post #29

jondwillis wrote: post #13

TikTok and Facebook’s antics (existence?) have me seriously considering quitting tech. I feel like no matter what I do, I am feeding one of these societal cancers by implementing tracking for whoever is paying me currently, lifting dark patterns, etc, using the API of Google… I tried to avoid doing these things for awhile but nobody pays me to be ethical. My only marketable skill is software development and I pretty…

After working for so many companies that went down the surveillance capitalism path I finally decided I would only work on security and privacy projects. It turns out even with this limitation I have had endless job options. So much so I decided to start my own consulting company so I could pick and choose the most interesting projects across many non-survcap companies. I am a -lot- happier. Also as an independent co…

Interesting. I’m wracking my brain trying to figure out a similar industry that I can get excited about. The cat and mouse nature of security and privacy puts me off a bit. Maybe green tech? Appreciate the comment nonetheless!

Re: Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok

#36

Post by dmix » Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 4:21 AM UTC

prawn wrote: post #24

Instagram was trending down but has taken a dive in recent months. Just an unbearable proportion of ads and lame suggested content. You end up playing whack-a-mole trying to get it to stop showing you rubbish. It had been a not-insignificant part of my work but now I just resent using it at all.

Probably because what makes TikTok attractive isn't it's dark features that only Instagram would think was important, but how amazing it is at learning your interests with the lowest amount of required input (just swiping down quickly or not after a new video starts).

I was one of those people that thought TikTok was a modern garbage machine that only produced low quality dancing videos of young girls for zoomers. But then I read on HN that you just need to commit for a little while and it will learn what you like.

I was amazed at how much this is true. I'm now getting Scott Manley-esque space news, tech stuff, hyper local restaurant recommendations, real gameplay of game genres I actually like, etc. Basically what took me years to carefully subscribe to on Youtube was done in a few months on TikTok and it only seems to get more relevant (note: YT always still wins in pure intellectual signal vs noise).

The whole addictive thing is obviously an issue, especially for kids, but I'm an adult who grew up with tech and I've learned how to carefully balance internet/life, so it's mostly pure upside for me.

Re: Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok

#37

Post by ineedtoknowmore » Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 4:22 AM UTC

chii wrote: post #25

jondwillis wrote: post #13

TikTok and Facebook’s antics (existence?) have me seriously considering quitting tech. I feel like no matter what I do, I am feeding one of these societal cancers by implementing tracking for whoever is paying me currently, lifting dark patterns, etc, using the API of Google… I tried to avoid doing these things for awhile but nobody pays me to be ethical. My only marketable skill is software development and I pretty…

> I tried to avoid doing these things for awhile but nobody pays me to be ethical. it's because any way to make money that is currently legal (but some might consider unethical) is the fittest agent in the darwinian natural selection of economic competition. So any ethical businesses who forgo a more profitable, but slightly less ethical method, would be out-competed. Over time, therefore, what remains must be busine…

- Many of these business models have been subsidized by governments.

- I'm not sure, though the reasoning may be that their future existence is ultimately more valuable as a population control system than merely an ad network.

- Some have argued that online ads are in a bubble. I don't know.

- A free market does not seem to exist though.

Thoughts?

Re: Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok

#38

Post by lrvick » Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 4:25 AM UTC

longemen3000 wrote: post #8

for instagram, i just gave up looking at the feed and just look at the posts that a group chat sends

At that point maybe try moving the group chat to a service not actively mining every word you type to feed adtech engines.

Re: Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok

#39

Post by winternett » Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 4:28 AM UTC

jondwillis wrote: post #13

TikTok and Facebook’s antics (existence?) have me seriously considering quitting tech. I feel like no matter what I do, I am feeding one of these societal cancers by implementing tracking for whoever is paying me currently, lifting dark patterns, etc, using the API of Google… I tried to avoid doing these things for awhile but nobody pays me to be ethical. My only marketable skill is software development and I pretty…

I'm not as worried about the tracking as much as I'm baffled by how psychological manipulation is now a commonly accepted practice on social platforms. That totally obliterates any trustworthiness they could present as a business. Children suffer the most in this fake celebrity game.

I use these apps a lot because I promote music I make... I don't really use black hat techniques to do so, but many people who do are completely robbing creator funds and getting far more exposure than most of the honest and most talented creators all combined. The platforms favor memes and things that don't promote any business outside of the platform, so it's made psychological manipulation and subtle suggestion very popular in pretty much every video. The endorphin rush people used to get is dying as videos turn more and more hostile and shockingly towards influencing viewers consumerism habits.

I think ethics are everything though, so I don't leverage my black hat development knowledge against platforms just to be heard, and don't waste tons of money on ads like the highly viewed accounts do... Accounts try to manipulate you into giving them your money, the platforms work to manipulate you into giving them your money for ads, it will eventually wear itself out once the money dries up or people catch on that most people on these platforms aren't really making good money, except for the platforms.

I try to always post non-psych-manipulative music related things for followers as well as cynical shitposts in protest as the platforms slowly direct my views towards overseas viewers that will never really purchase nor stream my music. It's rather grim, but I'm sharpening my video editing skills, and it motivates me to keep making music that I can take to whatever slowly corrupted social shit show comes next... touché!

Re: Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok

#40

Post by nemothekid » Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 4:36 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #12

nemothekid wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain types of content is banned on Douyin but the idea that tiktok promotes "edu and wholesome content within China" is a myth spread by Andrew Tate a couple months ago. TikTok promotes the content that you respond to, no different than the recommendation algos we've gotten from our homegrown social media companies. Their biggest differentiator is that the signals they use are way better. If you see alot of gender…

>>the tiktok algo promoting edu and wholesome content within China, but twerking and gender transition in the west true? >Certain types of content is banned on Douyin but the idea that tiktok promotes "edu and wholesome content within China" is a myth spread These two comments aren't really contradictory. Tiktok might technically not be "promoting edu and wholesome content" in china, but they might have banned the co…

>These two comments aren't really contradictory.

No, I think the phrasing of the statement is misleading. It implies that TikTok (or some Chinese boogeyman) is the one making the decision to "poison" American Tiktok viewers. That isn't the case; the two cultures are different - China may ban choose to ban twerking videos on social media platforms but the US could not do something like that without infringing on free speech.

The people want twerking videos (TikTok did not invent "sex sells"), whether or not tiktok gives it to you is a function of the countries government, not some Chinese mastermind.

That said, I don't think the statement is globally true. I opened TikTok just now on "unpaired words"[1], I've never seen a video on transitioning and I get plenty of educationally curious content. This content does exist on US TikTok and is being promoted; you just have to be interested in watching it.

[1] https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRA7HJSv/?k=1